Adventures in an all electric vehicle.

[rhubarb7]

It depends how far you want to take it. Shanks's pony isn't emissions free. Apart from the obvious emissions after beer, sprouts or curry, you have to provide calories that have been produced with oil based fertiliser, oil fuelled agricultural vehicles, transport and packaging.

In terms of producing an EV or Electric train, which causes emissions, this has to happen so that people can character assassinate them with fossil fuel industry funded disinformation and memes. If it wasn't for that pastime, some people would be barking at people who passed their gate

We use an electricity tariff that costs a few pence more but purports to use largely renewable energy. So electric trains and car chargers could also use similar schemes.

I'm out of here, I'll stick to the project threads etc.

Put your dummy back in

 

[atomant48]

Your quote: Folk really need to move on from range defining EVs

Really?!! So it's ok to pay 90 grand for a vehicle that only does half the range of what is claimed.

And then said manufacturer ignores you.

Don’t get me wrong. If there’s a genuine cover up then it needs sorting. My point is more about the focus on range (I do understand it’s because the range is “typically” less than folk are used to with ICE) but they don’t market ICE cars based on how far they go on a tank. The context of use is so different and I think manufacturers (and consumers) should focus on different things. Just my view

 

[atomant48]

It's both - we see by design /necessity acellerated tyre wear on the shoulders of the tyre due to the geometry required to give the vehicle the stability required for the distribution of the mass.
The tears/cracks between the tread blocks is as you say, due to the application of high torque. These tyres are specific BEV tyres and we generally only see this on single motor vehicles, dual motor vehicles don't suffer as much from this. The vehicle manufacturers are aware of this and have updated (in the main) their drivers manual and Technical Service Bulletins to say it's a consequence of high torque applications (which also deplete the available range) and not a defect - or words to that effect. The tyres in the photos have around 6mm of tread remaining so they are not 'old', they've probably done 3-4,000 miles, but it's 'enthusiastically' pulling out of junctions or traffic light drag racing that can cause early life issues as shown.

Really appreciate the detailed and knowledgable explanation.

 

[GRW]

It depends how far you want to take it. Shanks's pony isn't emissions free. Apart from the obvious emissions after beer, sprouts or curry, you have to provide calories that have been produced with oil based fertiliser, oil fuelled agricultural vehicles, transport and packaging.

In terms of producing an EV or Electric train, which causes emissions, this has to happen so that people can character assassinate them with fossil fuel industry funded disinformation and memes. If it wasn't for that pastime, some people would be barking at people who passed their gate

We use an electricity tariff that costs a few pence more but purports to use largely renewable energy. So electric trains and car chargers could also use similar schemes.

I'm out of here, I'll stick to the project threads etc.

Sticking to project threads is probably a good idea.
It's really, really playing down the 'far-from-zero' emissions.
For a start, the notion that you're only using electricity from sustainable resources - is a bad joke. All electricity produced is on a common network - perhaps our intrepid poster imagines that they pick out the green electrons from the red ones - and divert those to those customers on a "green only" tariff.
Frankly, that's purile.
The Locos would not operate on still days or at night either.

With that kind of logic, I'd advise against buying any beachfront property until you've first got a grown-up to check that the tide is in first .

Woof, woof!

 

[brewdexta]

Sticking to project threads is probably a good idea.
It's really, really playing down the 'far-from-zero' emissions.
For a start, the notion that you're only using electricity from sustainable resources - is a bad joke. All electricity produced is on a common network - perhaps our intrepid poster imagines that they pick out the green electrons from the red ones - and divert those to those customers on a "green only" tariff.
Frankly, that's purile.
The Locos would not operate on still days or at night either.

With that kind of logic, I'd advise against buying any beachfront property until you've first got a grown-up to check that the tide is in first .

Woof, woof!

I'm no fan of the stupid artificial energy market either, but you have to deal with what you have. You missed that I said they could use "largely renewable" So they could be on a green tariff and use only filthy despicable electrons from nasty disgusting sources when there is no wind or sun in Europe.

My supplier purports to be 100% renewable, so they can't be many days where they can't get it.

Green electricity

Ecotricity supplies 100% green electricity, generated by wind and solar power, using our customers’ bills to build new sources of renewable energy.

www.ecotricity.co.uk

Anyway, VFDs don't programme themselves and the dog wants to go the the pub.

 

[premmington]

It's both - we see by design /necessity acellerated tyre wear on the shoulders of the tyre due to the geometry required to give the vehicle the stability required for the distribution of the mass.
The tears/cracks between the tread blocks is as you say, due to the application of high torque. These tyres are specific BEV tyres and we generally only see this on single motor vehicles, dual motor vehicles don't suffer as much from this. The vehicle manufacturers are aware of this and have updated (in the main) their drivers manual and Technical Service Bulletins to say it's a consequence of high torque applications (which also deplete the available range) and not a defect - or words to that effect. The tyres in the photos have around 6mm of tread remaining so they are not 'old', they've probably done 3-4,000 miles, but it's 'enthusiastically' pulling out of junctions or traffic light drag racing that can cause early life issues as shown.

So the money is in: Selling sets of four tyres and chargers to EV owners then

 

[minimutly]

Don’t get me wrong. If there’s a genuine cover up then it needs sorting. My point is more about the focus on range (I do understand it’s because the range is “typically” less than folk are used to with ICE) but they don’t market ICE cars based on how far they go on a tank. The context of use is so different and I think manufacturers (and consumers) should focus on different things. Just my view

Well, ICE cars aren’t marketed on range because it quite clearly isn’t an issue when you can fill up anywhere and get going in 5 minutes. The mpg rating of ice cars has been fairly well clamped down on years ago, to the point that the discrepancy is small.
So fo EVs the range thing is important, so needs to be correct to some standard - early days yet maybe?

 

[minimutly]

I'm no fan of the stupid artificial energy market either, but you have to deal with what you have. You missed that I said they could use "largely renewable" So they could be on a green tariff and use only filthy despicable electrons from nasty disgusting sources when there is no wind or sun in Europe.

My supplier purports to be 100% renewable, so they can't be many days where they can't get it.

Green electricity

Ecotricity supplies 100% green electricity, generated by wind and solar power, using our customers’ bills to build new sources of renewable energy.

www.ecotricity.co.uk

Anyway, VFDs don't programme themselves and the dog wants to go the the pub.

Re the “clean” electricity thing - the certificates are not attached directly to kW, so you can buy them whenever they come on the market - yes it’s a bit Micky mouse but that’s the system

 

[daleyd]

Well, ICE cars aren’t marketed on range because it quite clearly isn’t an issue when you can fill up anywhere and get going in 5 minutes. The mpg rating of ice cars has been fairly well clamped down on years ago, to the point that the discrepancy is small.
So fo EVs the range thing is important, so needs to be correct to some standard - early days yet maybe?

Isn’t that the idea of WLTP?

Maybe not hugely accurate but it’s a standardised set of tests so you can at least compare one against another. Think the us have their own version.

 

[GRW]

I'm no fan of the stupid artificial energy market either, but you have to deal with what you have. You missed that I said they could use "largely renewable" So they could be on a green tariff and use only filthy despicable electrons from nasty disgusting sources when there is no wind or sun in Europe.

My supplier purports to be 100% renewable, so they can't be many days where they can't get it.

Green electricity

Ecotricity supplies 100% green electricity, generated by wind and solar power, using our customers’ bills to build new sources of renewable energy.

www.ecotricity.co.uk

Anyway, VFDs don't programme themselves and the dog wants to go the the pub.

I find it difficult to see just how any company can claim to supply only "100%" renewable energy.
There will be periods when the renewable percentage on the grid cannot meet all the "green" sales/demand.
I doubt that there us any Body that collates all the "Green" unit sales per hour, v the Renewable units produced - but if there was, I'm betting there'd be periods when there was a shortfall.
Now, given that a Green Supplier isn't about to stop charging for Electricity, nor going to switch supplies off when there's not enough renewable-sourced.... that means using non-renewable generated electricity.
To me this is no "Traders Puff" Sales Pitch - if Providers cannot guarantee & 100% prove that all the Electricity they sell is Renewables Generated - then its a lie and they shouldn't be permitted to use the claim to attract customers.

 

[Shox Dr]

Isn’t that the idea of WLTP?

Maybe not hugely accurate but it’s a standardised set of tests so you can at least compare one against another. Think the us have their own version.

What happened to ISO

 

[daleyd]

What happened to ISO

Never heard of that - but the wltp replaced an older test type, I believe the idea was to give a standardised “real world” test so mpg figures weren’t so far out from manufacturers claims.

They use the same test for mileage on ev cars, so when you see a range give. it should be comparable to another car, if not an absolutely accurate range you can expect in the real world. Similar to an ice car mpg figures, in reality you will likely never achieve those but the test at least gives a comparison between vehicles.

 

[Ubique]

My owner’s manual states that tyres (wheels) should be rotated at 7500 mile intervals, but the dealer tells me this is generally only applicable to two wheel drive models and so AWDs don’t get swapped. I’m a bit surprised, as the AWDs only use drive at both ends when being driven ‘enthusiastically’.
....

Which is why when you drive a 2WD BEV 'enthusiastically' you start tearing the tread blocks out of the part of the tyre with most grip on the road surface. You need understand the difference in application of torque between an ICE and a BEV vehicle, to see why the rest of your post isn't worth repeating. Ever.

 

[GRW]

It's been said here that EV's aren't sold on Range. I'd strongly disagree. Due to the big holes in the charging network, Range us a VERY big factor for a great many in their choice of car. Its such a big part & concern that there's even a whole new expression that has entered common use - "Range Anxiety".

Tesla will know this very well indeed. It seems that the response to Range being a deal-breaker, they addressed it..... by exaggerating the Range both in claims & by manipulating the Full to half charge Range display value.
If Range wasn't an important factor..... then why are Tesla cooking the books?

(Years ago I fancied a Honda VTR1000. As soon as I saw the Range being as poor as 80-miles - I immediately dismissed one)

 

[daleyd]

I’d assume if your that outraged by car manufacturers false claims you might never buy another VAG product ever again.

 

[atomant48]

It's been said here that EV's aren't sold on Range. I'd strongly disagree. Due to the big holes in the charging network, Range us a VERY big factor for a great many in their choice of car. Its such a big part & concern that there's even a whole new expression that has entered common use - "Range Anxiety".

Tesla will know this very well indeed. It seems that the response to Range being a deal-breaker, they addressed it..... by exaggerating the Range both in claims & by manipulating the Full to half charge Range display value.
If Range wasn't an important factor..... then why are Tesla cooking the books?

(Years ago I fancied a Honda VTR1000. As soon as I saw the Range being as poor as 80-miles - I immediately dismissed one)

There are some great points being made on this discussion from “both sides” so please please take this as an alternative view rather than being argumentative!! I am very happy with my EV and very happy with my big volvo - and yep when I do the ONE regular trip we do to visit family (260 miles each way) we take the big volvo. More a consideration of space inside than range but it means I don’t need to think about diesel all the time en route or while I’m there until I get home so let’s us press on when the M6 allows !!

Now I used to have a 57 mile commute to Oxford each way and for a year I had a GS1200. It meant I could go there and back and there again but I’d have to fill up on the second day. Was a PITA. Totally get the point above about the VTR. After a year BMW were replacing it under warranty (rust) so I took the option to get the adventure which had a bigger tank. Meant I could do 2 complete days and half of a third - which in practice meant filling once a week.

Now to my point - EVs are a bit like that but imagine you have a petrol bulk tank at home and you fill it up every night. The range problem (for the majority of journeys I suggest) goes away. I can easily put 120 miles charge into my EV overnight (I only use a 13A plug….) which honestly does 99% of our use.

So apologies for the long post - but please just see it as a different context of use. I totally get there will be folk where 200 + miles a day is a real requirement (I’m not sure that the Rivian the chap is using as Lyft in my post above is a sensible choice) - and I am not trying to convert anyone. Just saying in my view the maximum range is not as critical as people think.

But let’s keep the intelligent debate going. Lots of good points being raised

 

[GRW]

I’d assume if your that outraged by car manufacturers false claims you might never buy another VAG product ever again.

VAG (& others) have been taken to task for telling porkies. A long while back all ICE Mfrs were required to change to a more "real-world" industry test standard for mpg. All quite rightly.
Do you believe its right that all EV mfrs & models are required to meet the same standards for Range? Or do you think that EV's should get a free pass & allowed to just "make s*** up"?

 

[GRW]

There are some great points being made on this discussion from “both sides” so please please take this as an alternative view rather than being argumentative!! I am very happy with my EV and very happy with my big volvo - and yep when I do the ONE regular trip we do to visit family (260 miles each way) we take the big volvo. More a consideration of space inside than range but it means I don’t need to think about diesel all the time en route or while I’m there until I get home so let’s us press on when the M6 allows !!

Now I used to have a 57 mile commute to Oxford each way and for a year I had a GS1200. It meant I could go there and back and there again but I’d have to fill up on the second day. Was a PITA. Totally get the point above about the VTR. After a year BMW were replacing it under warranty (rust) so I took the option to get the adventure which had a bigger tank. Meant I could do 2 complete days and half of a third - which in practice meant filling once a week.

Now to my point - EVs are a bit like that but imagine you have a petrol bulk tank at home and you fill it up every night. The range problem (for the majority of journeys I suggest) goes away. I can easily put 120 miles charge into my EV overnight (I only use a 13A plug….) which honestly does 99% of our use.

So apologies for the long post - but please just see it as a different context of use. I totally get there will be folk where 200 + miles a day is a real requirement (I’m not sure that the Rivian the chap is using as Lyft in my post above is a sensible choice) - and I am not trying to convert anyone. Just saying in my view the maximum range is not as critical as people think.

But let’s keep the intelligent debate going. Lots of good points being raised

I've no beef with any of that. My opinion is that EV's are best-suited for the shorter-distance "door-to-door" commute (made more do for commutes into the artificial environment of ULEZ zones which heavily disadvantage the EV.
My beef is as stated. Tesla (& others) knew very well that to tempt the punter out of his/her/its ICE, they needed to rid the SV of the staid milk float image - and have spent millions on positive marketing campaigns, on building very fast hill-climb and other race cars, and on cramming power & big batteries to try to offer comparable performance to a non-commuter, more performance oriented sporty saloon.
It's pretty easy to make an EV accelerate very fast, and to achieve a high top speed. What they cannot do, is give an EV with comparable performance, comparable, sustainable range.

The dumb thing is - they no longer need to. The punter cannot drive fast anymore anyway, & in any case needs economy & range as a much more useful attribute.
If (IMO) the focus was on building truly affordable, modest performance short-medium range smaller cars - the EV would have a great deal more credibility than the daft ego-trip stuff.

 

[Ubique]

There are some great points being made on this discussion from “both sides” so please please take this as an alternative view rather than being argumentative!! I am very happy with my EV and very happy with my big volvo - and yep when I do the ONE regular trip we do to visit family (260 miles each way) we take the big volvo. More a consideration of space inside than range but it means I don’t need to think about diesel all the time en route or while I’m there until I get home so let’s us press on when the M6 allows !!

Now I used to have a 57 mile commute to Oxford each way and for a year I had a GS1200. It meant I could go there and back and there again but I’d have to fill up on the second day. Was a PITA. Totally get the point above about the VTR. After a year BMW were replacing it under warranty (rust) so I took the option to get the adventure which had a bigger tank. Meant I could do 2 complete days and half of a third - which in practice meant filling once a week.

Now to my point - EVs are a bit like that but imagine you have a petrol bulk tank at home and you fill it up every night. The range problem (for the majority of journeys I suggest) goes away. I can easily put 120 miles charge into my EV overnight (I only use a 13A plug….) which honestly does 99% of our use.

So apologies for the long post - but please just see it as a different context of use. I totally get there will be folk where 200 + miles a day is a real requirement (I’m not sure that the Rivian the chap is using as Lyft in my post above is a sensible choice) - and I am not trying to convert anyone. Just saying in my view the maximum range is not as critical as people think.

But let’s keep the intelligent debate going. Lots of good points being raised

Fully agree with the above, the 'problem' is that either people don't have the driveway space to charge at home -or- as I've experienced, most BEV's & hybrids are company cars and they won't charge at home as that costs them money they can't claim back. So when there is an issue with the high-current charger or the charge flap not opening, it's a big problem. Yes, it's down to the reliability of the vehicle parts in the main, it's also an issue with the 'company car driver' mindset.

 

[daleyd]

VAG (& others) have been taken to task for telling porkies. A long while back all ICE Mfrs were required to change to a more "real-world" industry test standard for mpg. All quite rightly.
Do you believe its right that all EV mfrs & models are required to meet the same standards for Range? Or do you think that EV's should get a free pass & allowed to just "make s*** up"?

See my post above re wltp - that’s exactly what ev manufacturers do. In fact they use the same test that Ice cars do as far as I know.

I don’t believe it’s right that they have manipulated data, but I’m also not pretending it doesn’t happen with other car manufacturers. The outrage seems to be purely because it’s an ev manufacturer, which is fine it just seems a bit odd to me. Every time I read one of your posts the Monty python “burn the witch” sketch comes to mind….

If they’ve been found out they will be held to account, same as others have. I mean the Tesla mileage story has, as far as I know, only come out in the last few days, are you suggesting they should have been held to task before people knew about it?