Adventures in an all electric vehicle.

[Pigeon_Droppings2]

Part of me agrees with the Toyota assessment...the other part of me wonders whether they're coming up with a narrative to explain why they're falling behind!

My personal opinion is that PHEV is the way to go....combined with a carbon neutral liquid fuel (basically green petrol). A PHEV uses about 1/10th of the batteries of a full EV so the biggest environmental bang for buck is to use the lithium in PHEVs where all the "lithium EV range" will more likely be used.

...but as we all know politicians aren't really the smartest of us....they're basically disincentivising PHEVs so I'm having to buy an EV which I don't think is the best solution for the planet wide problem ...but at £20 a recharge it's the best solution for my wallet at the moment!

 

[GRW]

Part of me agrees with the Toyota assessment...the other part of me wonders whether they're coming up with a narrative to explain why they're falling behind!

My personal opinion is that PHEV is the way to go....combined with a carbon neutral liquid fuel (basically green petrol). A PHEV uses about 1/10th of the batteries of a full EV so the biggest environmental bang for buck is to use the lithium in PHEVs where all the lithium EV range will more likely be used.

...but as we all know politicians aren't really the smartest of us....they're basically disincentivising PHEVs so I'm having to buy an EV which I don't think is the best solution for the planet wide problem

Toyota said the Hybrid was the best option, combined with Hydrogen ICE & Hydrogen Fuel Cell technology.
Their take on the battery size & resources of the Hybrid v the EV was pretty much as you say.
They've already proved just how well the vehicles perform with their Dakar Hydrogen machines performing very impressively. It takes less time to refuel than a petrol/diesel also.
The fly in the soup - is the energy needed & cost to produce the Hydrogen. Toyota estimate they'd need to get the cost down to $2 per US Gallon of Hydrogen (so what, just under 50-cents a Litre) to match the current costs of charging an EV (in the US of course).

Tbh, I don't think Toyota lag behind on the EV Tech front (in essence the tech for battery-inverter-drive systems has been proven for decades - its the Lithium battery & changing environments for vehicles that's made it into a product that has any chance of being remotely close enough to ICE to be viable (& even then it of course isn't- its needed restrictions/penalties & outlawing on ICE's, plus big Govt support & subsidy to get EV's off the ground).
The piece I watched (with direct quotes from a Mr Toyota big boss on camera) was unequivocal - Toyota don't back EV's because they say that the EV cannot possibly meet future transport need. They didn't dress it up.

 

[Pigeon_Droppings2]

Tbh, I don't think Toyota lag behind on the EV Tech front

I was thinking more in terms of mass producing EVs down to a price that people can afford....my last petrol car was £27k 4 years ago....the mg4 is £32k which isn't a huge difference really.

I looked around at other manufacturers....their PHEVs were very expensive (£40k+)...just couldn't see the point of spending more on a PHEV when in my mind they should be cheaper than an EV if the batteries are really the main cost difference.

 

[GRW]

I was thinking more in terms of mass producing EVs down to a price that people can afford....my last petrol car was £27k 4 years ago....the mg4 is £32k which isn't a huge difference really.

I looked around at other manufacturers....their PHEVs were very expensive (£40k+)...just couldn't see the point of spending more on a PHEV when in my mind they should be cheaper than an EV if the batteries are really the main cost difference.

I'm guessing the addition of the ICE & it's associated paraphernalia, plumbing & fuel system outweighs the (mfr cost) extra battery storage?

Theoretically.... an EV ought to be a pretty simple, straightforward collection of techy bits bolted together, and it's manufacture a cheaper process than an ICE with its myriad machined whirly bits & assembly.
Of course, things never seem to work out that way!
(I still think if they pared-down an EV into a no-nonsense, no-frills short-distance commuter instead of trying to build electric "M3" type pose-mobiles for the image-afflicted..... that a genuinely sensible, practical & competitively priced EV is a possibility).

 

[bricol]

Pray tell me what is bad about that. If you come up with some carp, l can then check it out with my supplier and let the forum know.

Any charging puts stress on the battery, affecting it's life, regardless if its a long or short duration - so keeping charging events to a minimum if you don't need it would put it under less stress, leading to longer life.
same pretty much true for all rechargeable batteries.

 

[rhubarb7]

Why? I don’t see any problem at all with that strategy. Neither charging to high level nor discharging to low level will actually likely to be good for the battery.

The manufacturers clearly allow charging and discharging over the full 100% range (or it would be restricted). We know that it is likely better to not fully charge and fully discharge every day - particularly on the maximum charge rates all the time (DC charging). The battery BMS protects the battery from high rates of charging as the charge level approaches the maximum.

Further, charging heats the battery so there will be a balance between charge rate, temperature control and charge acceptance to achieve the maximum energy absorption for the energy supplied.

We have recently arrived back from a ~420 mile week away. Th car started at 100% charge (@~19-/kWh using a 7kW home charger), ran it to about 2%, charged on a public charger (at around 100kW) for the last ~65 miles and arrived home with about 11% of battery capacity. Since then, I have charged twice with my 7kW home charger for 1 1/2 hours (at a time) at a bit less than 19p/kWh (some early-morning solar power used). Each charge period puts in about 40 miles so battery charge is rising steadily - as the car has travelled less than 40 miles each day since arriving home. By the end of the week, the battery will be back up to about 80%, I expect. Pray tell me what is bad about that. If you come up with some carp, l can then check it out with my supplier and let the forum know.

Short and sweet, read up on lithium ion and how they build up memory. And also how their life can be shortened.

Form your own conclusion.

 

[GRW]

Short and sweet, read up on lithium ion and how they build up memory. And also how their life can be shortened.

Form your own conclusion.

Interestingly, the best practice for maximising Li-Ion batteries is very much like the process for Lead-Acid cells.

The advantage of the Lithium seems to be in outright energy density (though that comes at a price & extra risk) & that the Lithium cell can stand to be taken to a lower Depth-of-Discharge (DoD) with less risk of failure (with a lead-acid battery best kept above 40% DoD).

Tbh - for many applications (including off-grid) I struggle to see where the very high cost for Li-ion battery packs offers any advantage (barring perhaps size & weight of the pack) over Lead-Acid - with the latter being far, far cheaper, & far easier to maintain etc.

 

[Erie Fred]

Not much has changed eh ?

 

[Ubique]

It can't be doing your batteries any good keep doing short top ups...

Good to see some real world experiences with a EV...It's a long way off from being hassle free charging wise by the looks of it.

That charge strategy is much better than you'd expect, keep in the 20-80% range and it reduces the chemical changes in the battery that reduce their capacity and increase the chance of thermal runaway.

 

[GRW]

That charge strategy is much better than you'd expect, keep in the 20-80% range and it reduces the chemical changes in the battery that reduce their capacity and increase the chance of thermal runaway.

As well, I note that using fast-chargers is (just as it is for Lead-Acid) detrimental to the life expectancy of the pack.

It seems to me that (despite being fully aware of the sensible limits and charging regimes for batteries) there is an insistence on ignoring best practice in the quest for better statistics to make the EV look better than it is.

If you want to get the most out of your EV battery - then really you have to:
- accelerate & drive slowly
- avoid heavy loading of the motors, and
- charge slowly using less than 50% of the theoretical & rated capacity of the cells.

Ergo the fast-charge network at service areas etc are detrimental fuel strategies for your very costly battery/EV..... but funnily enough that's not being talked about.

 

[rhubarb7]

As well, I note that using fast-chargers is (just as it is for Lead-Acid) detrimental to the life expectancy of the pack.

It seems to me that (despite being fully aware of the sensible limits and charging regimes for batteries) there is an insistence on ignoring best practice in the quest for better statistics to make the EV look better than it is.

If you want to get the most out of your EV battery - then really you have to:
- accelerate & drive slowly
- avoid heavy loading of the motors, and
- charge slowly using less than 50% of the theoretical & rated capacity of the cells.

Ergo the fast-charge network at service areas etc are detrimental fuel strategies for your very costly battery/EV..... but funnily enough that's not being talked about.

Careful, you'll get accused of talking carp lol

 

[DAPPH]

I will just leave this here....

View attachment 413986

Done to death nowadays, million's of EV's now in service and just a few pictures of hot breakdowns two (?) involved in collisions and one arson or a photo fake ?

Two Sundays ago saw 18 ICE broken down's within a few hours of our journey between M4 Reading and Crosshands .
Funniest was a big campervan , stopped dead in the slow lane of a motorway merge, halfway into the left motorways rh merge road with two joining lanes on their left , Chaos ensued .. 12 miles of tail back on the M4 & god only knows how much tail back to Bristol .

 

[atomant48]

As well, I note that using fast-chargers is (just as it is for Lead-Acid) detrimental to the life expectancy of the pack.

It seems to me that (despite being fully aware of the sensible limits and charging regimes for batteries) there is an insistence on ignoring best practice in the quest for better statistics to make the EV look better than it is.

If you want to get the most out of your EV battery - then really you have to:
- accelerate & drive slowly
- avoid heavy loading of the motors, and
- charge slowly

I only use the Tesla network and even then only very rarely. They can range from 250kw to about 80 yesterday - depends mainly on how many other folk plugged in and what “state” your batter is in I think.

What does “charge slowly” mean - genuine question - ie is it a certain % of the battery capacity or is it simply the slower the better ? As mine spends 99% of its life being charged at 10A at home i reckon it must be in pretty good shape !

 

[Erie Fred]

Done to death nowadays, million's of EV's now in service and just a few pictures of hot breakdowns two (?) involved in collisions and one arson or a photo fake ?

Two Sundays ago saw 18 ICE broken down's within a few hours of our journey between M4 Reading and Crosshands .
Funniest was a big campervan , stopped dead in the slow lane of a motorway merge, halfway into the left motorways rh merge road with two joining lanes on their left , Chaos ensued .. 12 miles of tail back on the M4 & god only knows how much tail back to Bristol .

And no-one had a fire extinguisher in their car ? 12 miles of cars & trucks ?

Maybe the EV's need a rule, where they have a central onboard extinguishing system installed & inspected yearly.

 

[rhubarb7]

That charge strategy is much better than you'd expect, keep in the 20-80% range and it reduces the chemical changes in the battery that reduce their capacity and increase the chance of thermal runaway.

I disagree, doing a really fast charge for 15 minutes will do more harm than good.

 

[DAPPH]

I'm not long back from my holidays to Yorkshire with wee diversions through Fife, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Newcastle. 30kWh Nissan Leaf, 5 up with luggage, 1520miles in 7 days. Never skimped on a/c, taking it steady and being wary to avoid the bottom 1/3rd of the pack but it was no great hardship taking the EV this time.

Highs - there are some really decent facilities going in designed by folk who know what they are doing although nowhere near enough. Wallyford park and ride was a good example with dozens of low power chargers and some well designed layout for rapids allowing trailers through. Catterick rapid chargers also excellent, how a filling station should be even selling LPG. Few other hubs on the A9 that are worth a mention, Pitlochry, Kingussie all good options.

Lows - Way too many rubbish EV charging facilities - Glasgow - 3 broken rapids in a row?! Tebay services - joke of a place, 2 rapids charging at 25kW with no queue facility and quite a few EVs unable to proceed to next services due to low batteries. Get a diesel genny and run it to power rapids if you can't get an electric connection. No provision for slow charging for those willing to sit in your overpriced cafes and spend money for longer. Broxden park and ride, 1 rapid and banks of unused Tesla chargers, something way wrong there. Straighton park and ride a joke as well, 1 rapid and one slow charger.

My own strategy was to keep the battery in the sweet spot charging, rapid charge of c.10kWh and unplug as soon as it started tailing down to less than 20kW so most of the time charging stops would be somewhere around 15 minutes max. Worked well and allowed plenty of stops for toilet breaks and stretching of legs. As I use CHAdeMO I managed to jump queues to get on a shared dual charger, Tebay was the only charger I think I actually had to queue for and that was only 10 minutes. Looking back I never took more than 16kWh from any rapid charger so even a degraded 24kWh Leaf would have managed the trip although they'd possibly have been a few minutes more at the chargers as the charger curve isn't quite as good as the slightly larger battery.

I paid a few quid extra to granny charge at our accommodation, they had a handy socket outside which helped day to day. I saw the best ever economy with over 5 miles per kWh for most of my travel in the Dales. The car really liked being able to regen on the steep braes and the low overall speeds on the lanes, way better economy there than similar roads here. Tourist pace perhaps?! No tailbacks though, I have mirrors and use them. Not a huge amount of charging infrastructure on my travels there - dead rapid in Kirby Stephen, next closest rapid showing on the map didn't exist.

I haven't added up the total charging costs yet as charging is a mess financially. I have the CPS card so easily keep track of most of my Scottish spend (apart from Perth, where I used BP Pulse ultra rapids) but South of the border it is every man for themselves and even though I have an Electroverse card it was pretty useless and it was a case of contactless payment or signing up for stupid apps like at Thirsk car park to allow slow charging. In most cases I had little control over the rates I would pay so paid the going rate of up to 90p/kWh in some cases. The journey cost will be more than the equivalent petrol model though, I'm pretty sure of that.

In terms of inappropriate vehicles to take on a family holiday the Leaf wasn't too bad at all, consider last year we were using a Discovery 3. Not too many complaints from the passengers although we didn't fit anything like the same baggage and the car noticed the weight when fully loaded. I think next year we will take the Series 2a before the powers that be dictate some legislation to stop us (went through three LEZs in the course of the trip). Forget your 90kWh battery monsters, have yourself a real adventure with a <20 kWh Leaf!

Don't most of the latest Branded Tesla chargers also accommodate other plugs for fast charging .. Certainly it's the other way round for most non Tesla chargers but not the early standalone type one chargers with only one small plug-in the same as a type one 13 amp domestic home plug in the mains charger ..
We did come across an non Tesla standard charger with a Tesla socket standing all forlorn and unloved at a MOTO services where 14 of the new latest up to date chargers are due to come on line in about 11 weeks time.

Comments please .

 

[DAPPH]

And no-one had a fire extinguisher in their car ? 12 miles of cars & trucks ?

Maybe the EV's need a rule, where they have a central onboard extinguishing system installed & inspected yearly.

I never said it was on fire Fred , it was just stopped dead in the middle of the intersection . More like a timing belt or SU Carb failure etc.as it was on a Sherpa chassis

 

[DAPPH]

And no-one had a fire extinguisher in their car ? 12 miles of cars & trucks ?

Maybe the EV's need a rule, where they have a central onboard extinguishing system installed & inspected yearly.

Over the last three years EV batteries have started to have reliable thermal cell cut outs that come into play if an individual cell shows sign of over heating . It may well be that such electrical fires of old will now rarely happen

 

[Erie Fred]

I never said it was on fire Fred , it was just stopped dead in the middle of the intersection . More like a timing belt or SU Carb failure etc.as it was on a Sherpa chassis

Oh, I thought it was an EV that was on fire, caused the 12 mile backup.
can't 20-30 people get together and push it off the side ?

 

[Erie Fred]

Over the last three years EV batteries have started to have reliable thermal cell cut outs that come into play if an individual cell shows sign of over heating . It may well be that such electrical fires of old will now rarely happen

EV batteries catch on fire for more than just charging/discharging.

CellBlock Fire Containment Systems & Safety Solutions

CellBlock FCS provides patented lithium-ion fire containment and suppression solutions trusted by the safest brands on Earth.

cellblockfcs.com

a second line of defense is needed, like an extinguishing system.