Adventures in an all electric vehicle.

[DAPPH]

I disagree, doing a really fast charge for 15 minutes will do more harm than good.

Just how bad is your journey planning & excessive hours spent driving if you are going to have dozens of fast charging one after another ?
Seem to recall reading that even if every recharge was a heavy duty blast to full charge it would not knock the guaranteed battery life for the agreed mileage . Though a taxi / fleet car might if it was being run around the clock but that would need special warrantees just like any ICE used for such a purpose .

 

[DAPPH]

Oh, I thought it was an EV that was on fire, caused the 12 mile backup.
can't 20-30 people get together and push it off the side ?

Not on a UK camera controlled very busy motorway intersection with cars being driven by morons either side of you at 70 mph or more ( a lot more ), plus where would the drivers park up whilst they get out and dash the 100 yards or so to the stricken vehicle . Then of course is the horrific problem of 20 to 30 people running back dodging traffic to get back to their parked vehicles .

 

[DAPPH]

EV batteries catch on fire for more than just charging/discharging.

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a second line of defense is needed, like an extinguishing system.

The thermal cut out comes into play if there is a short circuit heating effect . some I believe also have a deceleration device to disconnect / isolate the battery should it be involved in a collision. As new problems arise the manufactures will always implement new things to overcome the problem . just like ICE makers used to .

 

[Nomad]

Oh, I thought it was an EV that was on fire, caused the 12 mile backup.
can't 20-30 people get together and push it off the side ?

That's not going to happen these days

5 years ago I was driving on a congested dual carrigeway. The outside lane was blocked as someone had run into the back of the car in front. Front car was driveable and had pulled forward onto the hard shoulder. The car with the crumpled front end was the problem. I had kit in the car as I was regularly towing stock cars & trailers, I stopped and offered to tow the stranded car onto the hard shoulder so it was somewhere safe and the road was clear - driver told me to leave it where it was until the police came and took over. I left them to it.

Last year I came to a roundabout, there were 2 cars in front of me at the giveway line. First car waited for a gap then moved off ok. Next car stayed where it was - a car length from the line. I gave them a minute then got out went to see if they were ok - if they were broken down I was planning to offer to push if the driver steered to the side of the road just so they weren't blocking the junction.
I opened their passenger door, driver was just looking at the clocks with a blank expression on his face, his (very large!) passenger was just sitting there waiting for something to happen. I told the passenger to get out and push and we soon had the car off to the side of the road and the junction was cleared. Sad that the 2 of them in the car were incapable of thought themselves.

My classic started running rough last year on a long motorway trip. It would have got home ok but a driver in lane 2 pulled out as I was coming up behind in lane 3 - he then braked sharply as traffic in front was slowing due to traffic jam ahead, my car stalled when I did an emergency stop. All 3 lanes were stationary and I couldn't get my car started by the time the traffic started to move. I got out and pushed it across 3 lanes of traffic onto the hard shoulder before cars started moving at speed. There were people in 20+ cars watching me - nobody got out to help. The problem turned out to be a failing coil, easily swapped with a spare at the side of the road.

Sad to say from my personal experience in recent years is that the only thing you can expect if there's a broken down car stranded in a dangerous position is that lots of folk will get their phones out and start to video it

 

[Erie Fred]

The thermal cut out comes into play if there is a short circuit heating effect . some I believe also have a deceleration device to disconnect / isolate the battery should it be involved in a collision. As new problems arise the manufactures will always implement new things to overcome the problem . just like ICE makers used to .

I am involved with this stuff.
You think impact is just from driving ?

You need a secondary fire suppression system.

Period.
You can't fix it all with software.

 

[Erie Fred]

That's not going to happen these days

5 years ago I was driving on a congested dual carrigeway. The outside lane was blocked as someone had run into the back of the car in front. Front car was driveable and had pulled forward onto the hard shoulder. The car with the crumpled front end was the problem. I had kit in the car as I was regularly towing stock cars & trailers, I stopped and offered to tow the stranded car onto the hard shoulder so it was somewhere safe and the road was clear - driver told me to leave it where it was until the police came and took over. I left them to it.

Last year I came to a roundabout, there were 2 cars in front of me at the giveway line. First car waited for a gap then moved off ok. Next car stayed where it was - a car length from the line. I gave them a minute then got out went to see if they were ok - if they were broken down I was planning to offer to push if the driver steered to the side of the road just so they weren't blocking the junction.
I opened their passenger door, driver was just looking at the clocks with a blank expression on his face, his (very large!) passenger was just sitting there waiting for something to happen. I told the passenger to get out and push and we soon had the car off to the side of the road and the junction was cleared. Sad that the 2 of them in the car were incapable of thought themselves.

My classic started running rough last year on a long motorway trip. It would have got home ok but a driver in lane 2 pulled out as I was coming up behind in lane 3 - he then braked sharply as traffic in front was slowing due to traffic jam ahead, my car stalled when I did an emergency stop. All 3 lanes were stationary and I couldn't get my car started by the time the traffic started to move. I got out and pushed it across 3 lanes of traffic onto the hard shoulder before cars started moving at speed. There were people in 20+ cars watching me - nobody got out to help. The problem turned out to be a failing coil, easily swapped with a spare at the side of the road.

Sad to say from my personal experience in recent years is that the only thing you can expect if there's a broken down car stranded in a dangerous position is that lots of folk will

Sadly my experience's have been similar.
And working as a wrecker/tow truck helper, trying to convince drivers to slow down
and move over was terrible even 30 years ago.

 

[not done it yet]

Short and sweet, read up on lithium ion and how they build up memory. And also how their life can be shortened.

Form your own conclusion.

Ha,ha,ha. These are LITHIUM ION batteries not NiCads. You are about a decade, or more, behind the times.

Any battery life can be shortened. Part-charging NiCads was a prime example. Overheating does no battery any good. Discharging automotive lead/ acid batteries and not replenishing that charge soon sulphates the plates; nor will discharging them to less than 50% state of charge - not even recommended on traction Pb batterries.

Litium ion cells are good because they do not get a ‘memory’. Full stop. However, they may develop dendrites if left for long periods at full charge and must not be completely discharged - all taken care of by the BMS.

However, the LIFePO4 batteries (that are only just being used in EVs) are actually recommended to be fully charged each week. liFePO4 batteries are inherently safer than the older chemistries because they do not easily catch on fire (cells can be impaled, with immunity, unlike older chemistries). The down-sides of these newer vehicle chemistry batteries is that of lower power density and reduced maximum discharge rate. But battery developments continue to improve. They are accepted as perfectly adequate for most EV models - most new Teslas now use that technology.

Please go back to school and try to come up with real reasons before showing yourself up with such claims.

Millions of Lithium ion batteries have been used in power tools - they superseded NiCads years ago.

Probably billions of mobile phones don’t get a ‘memory‘ problem - they usually fail due to high charge voltages for the cell (to maximise running time) and/or overheating.

If Lithium ion batteries suffered from a ‘memory’ problem like NiCads, most current EV batteries would be dead by now (like all those that have rarely, if ever, been charged above 80%.

 

[not done it yet]

SWMBO, is keen on one of these, https://www.mazda.co.uk/cars/mazda-mx-30/mazda-mx-30-r-ev/
tried the full electric version but prefers the concept of a hybrid.
test drive booked as soon as the dealer gets one..

Should be better than most hybrids. The rotary engine has never really been accepted as the most reliable engine technology, but running at (mostly?) constant speed and not over-speeded, it may well be OK.

Their claim of being ‘always electric drive unlike…’ is carefully worded to exclude other similar preceding configurations - the BMW i3 REX was always electric, the engine only driving a generator which charged the battery. The BMW offering only had a single motor, of course (assume the Mazda has AWD offerings in the range because it mentions ‘motors’?)

Even the fully petrol driven “hybrids” gain from regenerative braking - about the only positive of those vehicles, apart from the possibility of some pollution-free urban motoring.

The Mazda, with a decent sized battery (35.5kWh), is much more akin to the BMW i3.

I would say a good choice as an entry route to a full BEV. Especially if used mainly from home charging.

 

[GRW]

I only use the Tesla network and even then only very rarely. They can range from 250kw to about 80 yesterday - depends mainly on how many other folk plugged in and what “state” your batter is in I think.

What does “charge slowly” mean - genuine question - ie is it a certain % of the battery capacity or is it simply the slower the better ? As mine spends 99% of its life being charged at 10A at home i reckon it must be in pretty good shape !

Honestly I'm not up-to-speed with what's  really the right percentage for Li-ion. But if it has a charging similarity in the same way it has other similarities with Lead-acid - then it'd be 10-15% of the AH rating per hour max.

 

[premmington]

Should be better than most hybrids. The rotary engine has never really been accepted as the most reliable engine technology, but running at (mostly?) constant speed and not over-speeded, it may well be OK.

Their claim of being ‘always electric drive unlike…’ is carefully worded to exclude other similar preceding configurations - the BMW i3 REX was always electric, the engine only driving a generator which charged the battery. The BMW offering only had a single motor, of course (assume the Mazda has AWD offerings in the range because it mentions ‘motors’?)

Even the fully petrol driven “hybrids” gain from regenerative braking - about the only positive of those vehicles, apart from the possibility of some pollution-free urban motoring.

The Mazda, with a decent sized battery (35.5kWh), is much more akin to the BMW i3.

I would say a good choice as an entry route to a full BEV. Especially if used mainly from home charging.

Have you ever tried to start an Rx7 or Rx8 rotary engine...?

Rotary engines was always, gross polluters like two strokes - maybe things have improved?

------

I not anti Rotary - I have rebuilt a few Elford turbos in the early years...

 

[Pigeon_Droppings2]

I not anti Rotary -

anti-rotary...would that be stationary I'm wondering

 

[GRW]

Done to death nowadays, million's of EV's now in service and just a few pictures of hot breakdowns two (?) involved in collisions and one arson or a photo fake ?

Two Sundays ago saw 18 ICE broken down's within a few hours of our journey between M4 Reading and Crosshands .
Funniest was a big campervan , stopped dead in the slow lane of a motorway merge, halfway into the left motorways rh merge road with two joining lanes on their left , Chaos ensued .. 12 miles of tail back on the M4 & god only knows how much tail back to Bristol .

Mind you if Toyota's data is correct & that only 1% of the world's cars are Leccy (& yes I appreciate the UK will have a bit more than 1%) - plus when you consider that a lot of ICE's will be a lot older & much higher mileage than the cast majority of EV's..... then (if the EV reliability was identical to ICE reliability) .... you should be able to count well over 100 failed ICE's for every failed EV.
(The actual number would require the data to do the maths, but I'm sure you get the point).

As for failed ICE campervans versus EV campervan breakdowns..... well that's an infinite number

 

[redlig]

Oh, I thought it was an EV that was on fire, caused the 12 mile backup.
can't 20-30 people get together and push it off the side ?

Get together and push it to one side!!! Don't be silly we can't do things like that . This is Great Britain , nobody has been introduced and heaven knows who one might meet.

 

[willie.macleod]

I disagree, doing a really fast charge for 15 minutes will do more harm than good.

It's a Leaf so rapid charge is 47kW max, nothing compared to the 350kW monster chargers available now. The battery tends to perform better once warm, it will stay at a higher charge rate once it warms up. Fine line between that and over heating with a non cooled pack but I never went into the red once. I trust the Nissan engineers programmed the BMS properly as they've got over a decade of data from their cars in the wild to reflect on.

 

[Erie Fred]

Get together and push it to one side!!! Don't be silly we can't do things like that . This is Great Britain , nobody has been introduced and heaven knows who one might meet.

Yes, I'm sorry for the lapse.
Maybe all the Paparazzi can get out of their vans, and push..."Oh look, is that Clarkson ?"

 

[GRW]

I think people automatically assume that everyone has a mobile phone & is able to get assistance.
Then, there's the fact that people are more self-absorbed & uninterested in the problems of someone they font know.
Also, there is a much higher level of distrust & suspicion of other people (somewhat understandable).
Then, there is the risk that the person you intended to help - mistrusts or misinterprets your intentions & sees you as a threat.
Finally, there's the increasing possibility of being embroiled in some legal pickle, even sued - for being daft enough to try and assist a fellow human being.

So - it's no surprise that people just drive on by really.

 

[not done it yet]

As well, I note that using fast-chargers is (just as it is for Lead-Acid) detrimental to the life expectancy of the pack.

It seems to me that (despite being fully aware of the sensible limits and charging regimes for batteries) there is an insistence on ignoring best practice in the quest for better statistics to make the EV look better than it is.

If you want to get the most out of your EV battery - then really you have to:
- accelerate & drive slowly
- avoid heavy loading of the motors, and
- charge slowly using less than 50% of the theoretical & rated capacity of the cells.

Ergo the fast-charge network at service areas etc are detrimental fuel strategies for your very costly battery/EV..... but funnily enough that's not being talked about.

Agree with some of it …but…

Continuous heavy acceleration will heat the battery (all batteries have an internal resistance and will heat according to the IR^2 rule - the BMS will restrict the battery current-draw if the vehicle is driven beyond normal limits. The ‘insane’ acceleration starts on the earlier Teslas were limited to two starts in quick succession, IIRC. The Taycan was the first to make several repeated maximum acceleration runs without restriction.

‘Driving slowly’ is misleading or subjective. It is simply a matter of restricting the discharge rate to a safe ‘C’ rate.

The motor(s) are designed for loading to 100%. Nowt to do with the motors - it is the continuous battery discharge rate (the ‘C’ rate again. Speed at which one drives is not particularly important - other than higher speeds will reduce range by virtue of drag.

Dunno what you really mean by your last point. Batteries will easily charge at the 0.5C rate (but charging will decrease from high C rates, as full charge approaches - hence the “80%” rule. So no need to talk about it at all - unless you are someone who doesn’t know how these systems work.

My battery can safely be recharged (only between about 20-80%), in ideal conditions, at the 3.5C rate. Outside those values and the other constraints, the charge rate will be considerably reduced as deemed necessary by the BMS.

After considering my comments re the above, your ‘ergo’ comment becomes just about totally irrelevant. The 80% rule, with fast DC charging, will be implemented by all who are sensible and the charge rate will be diminished by the BMS above 80%, anyway. It is sooo well known that charging to 80% and discharging to 20%, with a fast DC charge, is the fastest way to travel between two points.

You can be assured that the manufacturers have beaten you - to all of your suggestions for charging/discharging. They are way in front, for sure - very apparent from your postings.

 

[Ubique]

As well, I note that using fast-chargers is (just as it is for Lead-Acid) detrimental to the life expectancy of the pack.

It seems to me that (despite being fully aware of the sensible limits and charging regimes for batteries) there is an insistence on ignoring best practice in the quest for better statistics to make the EV look better than it is.

If you want to get the most out of your EV battery - then really you have to:
- accelerate & drive slowly
- avoid heavy loading of the motors, and
- charge slowly using less than 50% of the theoretical & rated capacity of the cells.

Ergo the fast-charge network at service areas etc are detrimental fuel strategies for your very costly battery/EV..... but funnily enough that's not being talked about.

I sort-of agree about the fast chargers, the only caveat is that L-ion batteries have thermal monitoring & charge management as part of the 'pack' so would request a charge rate reduction if the temperature was rising outside of acceptable limits. A lead-acid battery of the various types available rely on external calculations to control the charge rate and therefore internal temperature - clearly this only applies on-vehicle, some also have a temperature sensor built into the BMS to provide a rudimentary temperature monitor.
My NOCO L-ion battery booster pack has a fast charge capability, I've no intention of using it.

 

[willie.macleod]

The piece I watched (with direct quotes from a Mr Toyota big boss on camera) was unequivocal - Toyota don't back EV's because they say that the EV cannot possibly meet future transport need. They didn't dress it up.

That was a brave moment for them as a company. I wonder what his shareholders are thinking?

Tesla built an international supercharger network at the start and continue to improve it.

Nissan made their dealers install CHAdeMO rapids to recharge customer Leafs at the start.

If Toyota are serious about hydrogen they need to build a national network for refuelling their vehicles otherwise who will? They seem to be the only mainatream manufacturer taking this view on hydrogen so could potentially gain a huge competitive advantage being first to market.

 

[GRW]

Agree with some of it …but…

Continuous heavy acceleration will heat the battery (all batteries have an internal resistance and will heat according to the IR^2 rule - the BMS will restrict the battery current-draw if the vehicle is driven beyond normal limits. The ‘insane’ acceleration starts on the earlier Teslas were limited to two starts in quick succession, IIRC. The Taycan was the first to make several repeated maximum acceleration runs without restriction.

‘Driving slowly’ is misleading or subjective. It is simply a matter of restricting the discharge rate to a safe ‘C’ rate.

The motor(s) are designed for loading to 100%. Nowt to do with the motors - it is the continuous battery discharge rate (the ‘C’ rate again. Speed at which one drives is not particularly important - other than higher speeds will reduce range by virtue of drag.

Dunno what you really mean by your last point. Batteries will easily charge at the 0.5C rate (but charging will decrease from high C rates, as full charge approaches - hence the “80%” rule. So no need to talk about it at all - unless you are someone who doesn’t know how these systems work.

My battery can safely be recharged (only between about 20-80%), in ideal conditions, at the 3.5C rate. Outside those values and the other constraints, the charge rate will be considerably reduced as deemed necessary by the BMS.

After considering my comments re the above, your ‘ergo’ comment becomes just about totally irrelevant. The 80% rule, with fast DC charging, will be implemented by all who are sensible and the charge rate will be diminished by the BMS above 80%, anyway. It is sooo well known that charging to 80% and discharging to 20%, with a fast DC charge, is the fastest way to travel between two points.

You can be assured that the manufacturers have beaten you - to all of your suggestions for charging/discharging. They are way in front, for sure - very apparent from your postings.

That's a long winded post to suggest I'm ignorant & a bit fick.
I mentioned the motors.... because they are the LOAD upon the battery pack, and the harder you work the motors, the greater the current draw & heat the pack is subjected to! (Yes, I'm aware you know this - I'm just clearing up that so do I!). Maybe you should have made THAT connection instead of assuming I was dense, huh?

I used to programme charging regimens into off-grid inverter-chargers, and am well aware that the charging & system brain can be programmed to protect the batteries from going beyond X Discharge % (say 20%) and Y normal max charge (typically 80%) which the user won't even be aware of and cannot tamper with.
HOWEVER - given that there are these "Fast" Chargers with very short (in battery charge time terms) recharging, and at much higher Amperage rares to accomplish the charge in less time.... then this suggests to me that "best practice" charging is being set-aside in favour of mimimising inconvenience and time spent charging on journeys.

I do not claim to be an expert on EV's nor on Lithium Batteries. That does not mean I'm unable to think for myself.

Being condescending & dismissive just because you don't like my view on EV's as a viable transport solution - is reflecting more upon you - than upon me. I hope for your health that you moderate your output rather better in the real world