Dieselman 63
Forklift Certified
- Messages
- 5,681
- Location
- Wellington, New Zealand
Cool restoration, I must admit I didn't see your profile until I saw a trademe logo in one of your pics haha, caught me off guard!
- Thread starter mylesdw
- Start date
colnerov
Member
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- 4,826
- Location
- Nr Gatwick UK
Hi, The flanges are highly stressed areas, more so than the web. Weight loads on the chassis are trying to stretch or compress the flanges. Existing holes the manufacturer put in are calculated for. If you look at yours and other truck chassis's cross members and mounts are nearly always bolted or riveted to the web. Some chassis's are heat treated and you're not even supposed to weld them.
Colin
mylesdw
Member
- Messages
- 794
I assembled the new clutch system and bled it through only to find that it does not seem to work properly! When the clutch release bearing contacts the pressure plate it just stops dead, no movement of the clutch arms to speak of. Oddly, that is exactly how the old clutch use to feel - it just came to a sudden halt BUT it did always seem to work OK. I can only guess that something is badly worn or damaged in the pressure plate so it looks like the gearbox will have to come out to investigate further.
mylesdw
Member
- Messages
- 794
Taking the gearbox out turned out to be an easy task - less than an hour. The clutch seems to be in a sorry state but I'm not sure why. The release bearing is in two parts (not sure whether it is meant to be) and the clutch release arms are badly worn where they contact the release bearing. The friction plate look almost like new. It's almost as if the friction plate it too thick? By the time the pressure plate is bolted down the springs are almost in bind and there is little movement left for the release arms. I'll post some pictures shortly and I'll take the bits to a clutch specialist here in Christchurch for his opinion.
Is there meant to be a chassis plate or spacer between the clutch and the block?
Could it be that the gearbox is too close and the springs are compressed and the actual clutch doesn't have the range of movement? That would also put compression on the bearing?
I'm not familiar with manual boxes but have had a few issues with auto boxes. It looks like you are close to finding the issue!
Could it be that the gearbox is too close and the springs are compressed and the actual clutch doesn't have the range of movement? That would also put compression on the bearing?
I'm not familiar with manual boxes but have had a few issues with auto boxes. It looks like you are close to finding the issue!
octo0072000
Member
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- 6,017
- Location
- south yorks
wrong clutch, wrong cente plate, centre plate too thick causing springs to be coil bound
mylesdw
Member
- Messages
- 794
Someone else mentioned centre plate too thick; I never knew they came in different thicknesses but it does look like a new clutch that has been fitted wrongly or the incorrect parts. Good news (I suppose) is that it should be easily fixed and work much better.
The driven plate does look quite thick. Maybe it's been relined with the wrong material.
There's a chap not far from work (who incidentally drives an Iso Rivolta) who rebuilds clutches for a living so I'll take it round to show him on Thursday when I have my car in town.
There is an Australian company on eBay which sells the whole kit but it looks totally different and it's not cheap. Maybe it's just a generic picture. I like the idea of getting the alignment tool as part of the kit though.
The driven plate does look quite thick. Maybe it's been relined with the wrong material.
There's a chap not far from work (who incidentally drives an Iso Rivolta) who rebuilds clutches for a living so I'll take it round to show him on Thursday when I have my car in town.
There is an Australian company on eBay which sells the whole kit but it looks totally different and it's not cheap. Maybe it's just a generic picture. I like the idea of getting the alignment tool as part of the kit though.
octo0072000
Member
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- 6,017
- Location
- south yorks
the problem you may have is even though it's a bedford it's powered by a leyland engine this could be the problem.
could the clutch be different i have no idea also is the gearbox also leyland as well
so you can see the possibilities here
could the clutch be different i have no idea also is the gearbox also leyland as well
so you can see the possibilities here
octo0072000
Member
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- 6,017
- Location
- south yorks
sorry getting confused with the other pictures in the thred
centre plate looks ok not too thick could have been put in back to front some only fit one way but what ever the spring are coil bound so something is off
mylesdw
Member
- Messages
- 794
I took the clutch round to the rebuilder chap and it was quite interesting. He had a fancy air powered bench/jig thing that allows the clutch to be clamped down, operated and measured. Apart from the worn arms he thought it was OK, he even had new arms on the shelf! As far as spring binding goes he said they will be well compressed when the driven plate is quite new - the arms only have to move 5/16" to release the clutch.
The broken release bearing (it is only meant to be in one piece) may have to be entirely replaced (dearer option) or he might be able to press out the bearing itself and replace (cheaper option). The clutch release fork is also badly worn so I will try and get a new one.
The broken release bearing (it is only meant to be in one piece) may have to be entirely replaced (dearer option) or he might be able to press out the bearing itself and replace (cheaper option). The clutch release fork is also badly worn so I will try and get a new one.
mylesdw
Member
- Messages
- 794
A little progress with help from others.
John at Clutch Rebuilds in Christchurch has repaired the clutch cover and fitted new springs and arms
The helpful guys at Amberley Truck and Auto lent me an installer tool
and with the help of Andy from next door it was soon back in place
If anyone happens to know the torque setting for those clutch cover bolts (14" clutch Bedford 466 engine) I would be grateful.
John at Clutch Rebuilds in Christchurch has repaired the clutch cover and fitted new springs and arms
The helpful guys at Amberley Truck and Auto lent me an installer tool
and with the help of Andy from next door it was soon back in place
If anyone happens to know the torque setting for those clutch cover bolts (14" clutch Bedford 466 engine) I would be grateful.
jpmillermatic
Member
- Messages
- 1,094
great work here on the clutch....hopefully someone from here or over at truck and bus will be able to provide those torque settings. I would think with a new fork and bearing, it should help things quite a bit.
JP
JP
DAPPH
as dyslexik as I'm daft
- Messages
- 7,181
- Location
- Near to Cross Hands Llanelli SouthWales GB
I have a confession to make ,. 36 years ago almost to the day , as a working sergeant electro mechanical engineer in a 45 man strong platoon of mechanics etc I fitted a new clutch to Military Bedford M K . that was on a removed for repair engine .
No fancy alignment tools just a socket on the end of the 12 " extension and some insulating tape to fill out the socket for a good fit in the splines to align the plate before clamping it up . It went so far over the little alignment pin and stopped about 1/16 of an inch from a flush mating .
" Garrach " I said to myself or words to that effect , " More quality Bedford engineering " .
My unit used to fit four or five of these clutches every month and if that pattern was repeated across the armed forces then these latest substitutes ( not marked Borg & Beck like the original ) that would not fit well were par for the course. Engines were also also blowing up flywheels coming off etc etc .
Not thinking it through I simply slipped a small socket on the 12 " extension put it over the locating peg on the flywheel and gave it a sound wallop with a 2.5 pound engineers ball pene hammer & it became a good flush interference fit .
I said to the two lads doing the job , " OK lads I've put the clutch on the flywheel you can bung the engine back in . I then left them to get on with it as I had other duties to perform . Three hours later they had barely got the engine in. Which seemed strange, they were good mechanics & even I would have managed that on my own .
I was just about to give them a ribbing when the lowest of the low new out the training school craftsman / private said , "Sarge can I speak to you a minute "?
Was I embarrassed or what at what he said . He told me that during his recent training it was pointed out that all new replacement MK clutches had two locating holes in them 180 degrees apart , one at 5 mm dia the other at 5.5 mm , you have to be very careful that you use the correct hole depending on the military model / mark version of the truck . It's OK Sarge , I saw you braying it on , so when you went I took it off and put it in the right orientation .
He got a crate of beer from me for that & a quality recommendation for early promotion .
On talking to him further and several bods at REME TECH services In Germany the authorised modified new clutch difference was not mentioned in any of the technical manuals we worked by .
I rang a few senior rank pals in other workshops and also talked with a few Certified Mechanical Engineers .. We decided that if the clutch was fitted 180 degrees out it was the likely cause of a lot of replacement clutches & engines shaking them to pieces a few months after being " repaired " . That afternoon I amended all our copies of the repair manuals and sent off an urgent notification to HQ back in the UK .
No fancy alignment tools just a socket on the end of the 12 " extension and some insulating tape to fill out the socket for a good fit in the splines to align the plate before clamping it up . It went so far over the little alignment pin and stopped about 1/16 of an inch from a flush mating .
" Garrach " I said to myself or words to that effect , " More quality Bedford engineering " .
My unit used to fit four or five of these clutches every month and if that pattern was repeated across the armed forces then these latest substitutes ( not marked Borg & Beck like the original ) that would not fit well were par for the course. Engines were also also blowing up flywheels coming off etc etc .
Not thinking it through I simply slipped a small socket on the 12 " extension put it over the locating peg on the flywheel and gave it a sound wallop with a 2.5 pound engineers ball pene hammer & it became a good flush interference fit .
I said to the two lads doing the job , " OK lads I've put the clutch on the flywheel you can bung the engine back in . I then left them to get on with it as I had other duties to perform . Three hours later they had barely got the engine in. Which seemed strange, they were good mechanics & even I would have managed that on my own .
I was just about to give them a ribbing when the lowest of the low new out the training school craftsman / private said , "Sarge can I speak to you a minute "?
Was I embarrassed or what at what he said . He told me that during his recent training it was pointed out that all new replacement MK clutches had two locating holes in them 180 degrees apart , one at 5 mm dia the other at 5.5 mm , you have to be very careful that you use the correct hole depending on the military model / mark version of the truck . It's OK Sarge , I saw you braying it on , so when you went I took it off and put it in the right orientation .
He got a crate of beer from me for that & a quality recommendation for early promotion .
On talking to him further and several bods at REME TECH services In Germany the authorised modified new clutch difference was not mentioned in any of the technical manuals we worked by .
I rang a few senior rank pals in other workshops and also talked with a few Certified Mechanical Engineers .. We decided that if the clutch was fitted 180 degrees out it was the likely cause of a lot of replacement clutches & engines shaking them to pieces a few months after being " repaired " . That afternoon I amended all our copies of the repair manuals and sent off an urgent notification to HQ back in the UK .
I never get why engineers make it so easy for things to be installed wrong. 5 or 5.5mm is a terrible margin!
My Grandad told a similar story about American planes in Germany during the Berlin airlift. All the US planes had issues and then someone changed a manual and then they were all miraculously fixed.
My Grandad told a similar story about American planes in Germany during the Berlin airlift. All the US planes had issues and then someone changed a manual and then they were all miraculously fixed.
DAPPH
as dyslexik as I'm daft
- Messages
- 7,181
- Location
- Near to Cross Hands Llanelli SouthWales GB
I don't think it was the engineers who messed up, for we like uniformity and well engineered solutions not bean stealing cut corners forced on them with out their knowledge or consent .
Like as not it is down to the changeover from imperial to metric measurements that took place a few years earlier .
5.5 mm is a very close .175 of an inch if I remember correctly . So to cater for the design draughtsmans perchant for all things in easy metrics & balancing of the flywheel by computer on the newer M K engines it was done as 5 mm metric .
Then I suppose even though the armed forces still had zillions of old Bedford petrol QL's RL's ,the odd MK petrol & TK's etc. they ran out of the old Borg and Beck clutch assemblies . Rather than have a new batch made by Borg & Beck for the older vehicles they'll have decided in the civil servant run soucring organisation to do it by the cheapest tender .
The patients would have run out by 79 /80 as they were first made for the QLR office & troop carrier vacuum braked £ ton Bedford trucks of the 1940's . So some genius will have cut corners & modifed a substituted assembly that would fit all of the Bedford 3 tonne range of vehicles & pop an extra .175 hole in the MK clutch assembly , they just didn't bother to include any packing note with the item saying that it had been done .
A classic case that used to be very common in HMF , of one hand not knowing what the other has done or is going to do . Guys messing around with the horrible poorly engineered Ex Military Landrovers have similar problems over the whole range of marks , models and variants .
mylesdw
Member
- Messages
- 794
A little progress.
I fitted the new release bearing and arm
and with the help of a neighbour we put the box back in
and put the propshafts back on
We used my engine hoist and a selection of chains and shackles to lift the box from above - one of the bonuses of having no body on. We included a turnbuckle in the rear chain so that the box could easily be leveled and it all slid together quite easily
I fitted the new release bearing and arm
and with the help of a neighbour we put the box back in
and put the propshafts back on
We used my engine hoist and a selection of chains and shackles to lift the box from above - one of the bonuses of having no body on. We included a turnbuckle in the rear chain so that the box could easily be leveled and it all slid together quite easily
