Bi-Folding Gates to the yard of an unusual design.

[AlexWelderMonster]

For example if someone loses their fingers in your gear mechanism then are you saying that's not your fault and your client should have ensured this was fit for purpose and adequately covered to prevent injury?

Do you want to talk about risks?!
Do you drive a car?
There are a lot of moving parts. Doesn't that stop you from using it?
Okay, let's give a simpler example - like a kettle. You boil water. This involves using an open fire inside the house. How many times has London burned to the ground? Why not ban boiling water - there is a high risk of getting burned. Tell me, is there a corresponding instruction for everything? Are you sure that the nameless official did everything correctly and there is no hidden threat that someone simply forgot about? Until 2019, everyone believed in medicine, but the virus knew nothing about it. And how did your instructions help you? If you sue the Chinese for their virus entering your territory without asking the customs service - sue the Chinese))).

I can understand when you write about sensible things. But in your posts I see a desire to find fault. But two people can play this game ))))

 

[Barking Mat]

@KimB bifolding gates did jump to mind.

 

[Onoff]

Can you refer to them as bi-folding now? Surely this day and age their orientation is immaterial?

 

[JOEPRO]

Do you want to talk about risks?!
Do you drive a car?
There are a lot of moving parts. Doesn't that stop you from using it?
Okay, let's give a simpler example - like a kettle. You boil water. This involves using an open fire inside the house. How many times has London burned to the ground? Why not ban boiling water - there is a high risk of getting burned. Tell me, is there a corresponding instruction for everything? Are you sure that the nameless official did everything correctly and there is no hidden threat that someone simply forgot about? Until 2019, everyone believed in medicine, but the virus knew nothing about it. And how did your instructions help you? If you sue the Chinese for their virus entering your territory without asking the customs service - sue the Chinese))).

I can understand when you write about sensible things. But in your posts I see a desire to find fault. But two people can play this game ))))

My job is to technically review and approve construction products on large scale projects. I am an expert in building regulations.

Your arguments are just plain silly and I would not be specifying any of your products. I would choose a reputable manufacturer and ensure safeguards and regulatory compliance are in place.

Had you mentioned encoders, interlocks or sensors for safety it would have indicated some comprehension of safety systems but you did not....

In some countries there are very lax building and safety regulations. In the UK you could do jail time if someone is hurt and it is found that someone skipped steps or did not ensure all risks were fully removed in the design/ installation.

So at that, I will leave this thread and wish you well with your projects.

 

[DAPPH]

Do you want to talk about risks?!
Do you drive a car?
There are a lot of moving parts. Doesn't that stop you from using it?
Okay, let's give a simpler example - like a kettle. You boil water. This involves using an open fire inside the house. How many times has London burned to the ground? Why not ban boiling water - there is a high risk of getting burned. Tell me, is there a corresponding instruction for everything? Are you sure that the nameless official did everything correctly and there is no hidden threat that someone simply forgot about? Until 2019, everyone believed in medicine, but the virus knew nothing about it. And how did your instructions help you? If you sue the Chinese for their virus entering your territory without asking the customs service - sue the Chinese))).

I can understand when you write about sensible things. But in your posts I see a desire to find fault. But two people can play this game ))))

I like your ingenuity , If the gates were manually opened or closed I suspect there would be no problems , but once you add powered rams & motors then the health safety people go to town on you , often totally wiping out a reasonable project /product .
That you say you can have limit switches and can have PIR space protection , movement detectors /cut out devices if the space is suddenly occupied illegally is good . Two of your retractable swing gates would be brilliant to automatically close off a cut off walled corner of our property where the driveway enters it . Especially if a pedestrian gate for deliveries & visitors were included somehow .

 

[AlexWelderMonster]

My job is to technically review and approve construction products on large scale projects. I am an expert in building regulations.

Your arguments are just plain silly and I would not be specifying any of your products. I would choose a reputable manufacturer and ensure safeguards and regulatory compliance are in place.

Had you mentioned encoders, interlocks or sensors for safety it would have indicated some comprehension of safety systems but you did not....

In some countries there are very lax building and safety regulations. In the UK you could do jail time if someone is hurt and it is found that someone skipped steps or did not ensure all risks were fully removed in the design/ installation.

So at that, I will leave this thread and wish you well with your projects.

I get your point, maybe you missed my answer above - I suggested using a radar sensor to prevent the gate from moving if there is something alive near the gate. Is that also a bad solution?

 

[AlexWelderMonster]

I like your ingenuity , If the gates were manually opened or closed I suspect there would be no problems , but once you add powered rams & motors then the health safety people go to town on you , often totally wiping out a reasonable project /product .
That you say you can have limit switches and can have PIR space protection , movement detectors /cut out devices if the space is suddenly occupied illegally is good . Two of your retractable swing gates would be brilliant to automatically close off a cut off walled corner of our property where the driveway enters it . Especially if a pedestrian gate for deliveries & visitors were included somehow .

Thank you for your sober thoughts)
I understand the concerns of those who are obliged by duty to prevent risks. But when they reject all the proposed options for protection - sensors, radars, only because they are homemade or privately produced and openly promote the interests of large companies and manufacturers. And these companies use the same sensors, radars, sensors and motors.
Only some can, and others cannot.
Have these people heard anything about private enterprise, free market and competition?
I will attribute these manifestations to professional deformations.

 

[Robotstar5]

I get your point, maybe you missed my answer above - I suggested using a radar sensor to prevent the gate from moving if there is something alive near the gate. Is that also a bad solution?

If the budget runs to it then a laser scanner is good for that sort of protection, I've installed a few and found them very effective with the programmable swept area.

 

[MetalMonkey]

Okay, let's give a simpler example - like a kettle. You boil water. This involves using an open fire inside the house. How many times has London burned to the ground? Why not ban boiling water - there is a high risk of getting burned

I think you will find that the majority of the country use electric kettles to boil water! No open fire required.



While all of us on this forum are practical people and we can all appreciate a "can do" attitude to making and installing these gates, you need to understand that there are laws and regulations on these things, and certain expectations from customers.
For anybody who has a business installing or making these products in this country, the risk of heavy fines or imprisonment for failing to take adequate steps to meet safety requirements is simply not worth the risk.
Installers and customers will be expecting the manufacturer of such products to certify their products are safe (CE mark, standards approval, etc), and take responsibility for their products and provide guidance on installation to ensure any safety requirements are met.
They will not be expecting to have to adapt the equipment to meet local legislation.

I'm afraid it is no longer acceptable for a manufacturer to say "use at your own risk" or "leave it to the customer to fit safety measures". This has been the case for many decades in this country.

Many of the people on this forum will be familiar with working within the construction sector and the rules and regulations that have to be followed.
Please understand they are not criticising you, but simply telling you what the situation is in this country, which I appreciate will be drastically different to other countries.

Here is some more information on the types of things that must be considered - this is guidance from the HSE which (for simplicity) you may assume to be from the UK government.
I think you can appreciate that you can't argue with such rules, regardless of whether you agree with them.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/work-equipment-machinery/powered-gates/safety.htm

 

[Erie Fred]

I get your point, maybe you missed my answer above - I suggested using a radar sensor to prevent the gate from moving if there is something alive near the gate. Is that also a bad solution?

The radar sensor would need to be "Fail to safe" to be of much use.

 

[bricol]

I think you will find that the majority of the country use electric kettles to boil water! No open fire required.


Here is some more information on the types of things that must be considered - this is guidance from the HSE which (for simplicity) you may assume to be from the UK government.
I think you can appreciate that you can't argue with such rules, regardless of whether you agree with them.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/work-equipment-machinery/powered-gates/safety.htm

And pretty much throughout the EC, with similar in the US.

I do see mods to equipment etc on here that mean they no longer comply and if HSE are given any cause to inspect, will probably lead to legal trouble!

 

[Erie Fred]

If the budget runs to it then a laser scanner is good for that sort of protection, I've installed a few and found them very effective with the programmable swept area.

Yabutt, these are made by "Large companies" .....like SICK and others.

SICK | Sensor Intelligence

www.sick.com

and they work, and they fail safe.

 

[AlexWelderMonster]

I think you will find that the majority of the country use electric kettles to boil water! No open fire required.
https://www.hse.gov.uk/work-equipment-machinery/powered-gates/safety.htm

Thank you very much for the clear explanation)
Of course, you need to know and understand the rules that are accepted in your country. I will definitely read them carefully and take them into account.
Now I understand why there are a lot of manufacturers of bi-fold gates in the UK, but they all involve manual folding and unfolding of the leaves without connecting motors.
But the folding mechanism of the leaves can be installed to simplify the process of folding the gate! It seems that in this case there will be no restrictions?
I need time to familiarize myself with the information in the link that you gave. Thanks again)

 

[AlexWelderMonster]

If the budget runs to it then a laser scanner is good for that sort of protection, I've installed a few and found them very effective with the programmable swept area.

When I offer a customer in Ukraine to install a radar scanner, he refuses immediately after hearing the price (((
That's why I developed a mechanical system for using a conventional laser sensor on a movable second leaf. When opening the leaves, the laser and sensor remain in the field of view all the time and provide continuous monitoring of the gate leaf from the opening side. On the outside, conventional fixed laser sensors are installed, like on swing gates. Such a system is several times cheaper than a radar one.

 

[AlexWelderMonster]

Here is some more information on the types of things that must be considered - this is guidance from the HSE which (for simplicity) you may assume to be from the UK government.
I think you can appreciate that you can't argue with such rules, regardless of whether you agree with them.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/work-equipment-machinery/powered-gates/safety.htm

I read the material. It talks about gate automation.
But I do not install automation.
I only supply the folding mechanism for the leaves. This is pure mechanics.
The customer can operate the gate with the installed folding mechanism both manually and automatically. It depends only on his decision.

The manufacture and installation of the gate is carried out by a contractor hired by the Customer.
I cannot control the process of manufacturing the gate, much less the process of installing automation and security systems.
So the problem you raised does not really concern my product.
For my part, I always stipulate the need to install motion sensors. But in practice, it is the customers who install and operate third-party equipment that I do not supply, namely motors and automation for them.

My product is exclusively mechanical systems that allow you to fold two leaves with manual or automatic control on the gate.

If I misunderstood something, I will be glad to hear clarifications and opinions from colleagues)
Thanks for the discussion! I am immensely grateful to everyone for their interest)))))
Please be patient, some points are really unclear to me.

 

[Parm]

I think you will find that the majority of the country use electric kettles to boil water! No open fire required.



While all of us on this forum are practical people and we can all appreciate a "can do" attitude to making and installing these gates, you need to understand that there are laws and regulations on these things, and certain expectations from customers.
For anybody who has a business installing or making these products in this country, the risk of heavy fines or imprisonment for failing to take adequate steps to meet safety requirements is simply not worth the risk.
Installers and customers will be expecting the manufacturer of such products to certify their products are safe (CE mark, standards approval, etc), and take responsibility for their products and provide guidance on installation to ensure any safety requirements are met.
They will not be expecting to have to adapt the equipment to meet local legislation.

I'm afraid it is no longer acceptable for a manufacturer to say "use at your own risk" or "leave it to the customer to fit safety measures". This has been the case for many decades in this country.

Many of the people on this forum will be familiar with working within the construction sector and the rules and regulations that have to be followed.
Please understand they are not criticising you, but simply telling you what the situation is in this country, which I appreciate will be drastically different to other countries.

Here is some more information on the types of things that must be considered - this is guidance from the HSE which (for simplicity) you may assume to be from the UK government.
I think you can appreciate that you can't argue with such rules, regardless of whether you agree with them.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/work-equipment-machinery/powered-gates/safety.htm

Spot on Post

Stuff has to be made so its completely idiot proof and fail safe

Below is a case that i was shadowing when i had just joined the HSE. The woman grabbed onto the roller shutter doors, all by her own volition, no one made her do it, but then all the safety systems and mechanisms didn't work as they should have and she was crushed to death.

It could quite easily have been a person collapsed under the gate, then as it came down with non operational safety systems said person could quite easily be crushed.

These things are not to be taken lightly, all this safety stuff is there for a reason, must be working and tested to prove that it does

Mum dies after faulty garage door missed during inspection

A company has been fined after a mum was crushed in a roller shutter door in Cambridge

www.cambridge-news.co.uk

 

[Morrisman]

Thank you for your sober thoughts)
I understand the concerns of those who are obliged by duty to prevent risks. But when they reject all the proposed options for protection - sensors, radars, only because they are homemade or privately produced and openly promote the interests of large companies and manufacturers. And these companies use the same sensors, radars, sensors and motors.
Only some can, and others cannot.
Have these people heard anything about private enterprise, free market and competition?
I will attribute these manifestations to professional deformations.

The problem in the west is compensation culture. Every time anybody gets hurt, in any way, they want to sue, and get money.

The ‘ambulance chaser’ mentality that we imported from the USA is the cause of much of it. And thus everything that we make, or use, or play with etc, has to be insured against injuring someone.

I once worked with a guy in the US whose father had had a very successful ladder manufacturing business. As time went by health and safety became more and more invasive. He was legally obliged to put warning stickers on every ladder he sold.

It got to the stage where there were 13 different stickers on each ladder. I forget what they all said but some were absolutely insane, such as ‘Do not climb this ladder without leaning it against a wall” or words to that effect.

He had to have very comprehensive insurance cover in case some clown still managed to hurt themself and automatically sued his for compensation. All that went onto the price of each ladder, until it was almost impossible to even sell them, so he shut up shop.

 

[Erie Fred]

Spot on Post

Stuff has to be made so its completely idiot proof and fail safe

Below is a case that i was shadowing when i had just joined the HSE. The woman grabbed onto the roller shutter doors, all by her own volition, no one made her do it, but then all the safety systems and mechanisms didn't work as they should have and she was crushed to death.

It could quite easily have been a person collapsed under the gate, then as it came down with non operational safety systems said person could quite easily be crushed.

These things are not to be taken lightly, all this safety stuff is there for a reason, must be working and tested to prove that it does

Mum dies after faulty garage door missed during inspection

A company has been fined after a mum was crushed in a roller shutter door in Cambridge

www.cambridge-news.co.uk

The old saying about boiler codes rings true with most all codes.
"The boiler codes are written in blood".
They were written after an accident/death, to fix the problem.

 

[Trevorleach]

My job is to technically review and approve construction products on large scale projects. I am an expert in building regulations.

Your arguments are just plain silly and I would not be specifying any of your products. I would choose a reputable manufacturer and ensure safeguards and regulatory compliance are in place.

Had you mentioned encoders, interlocks or sensors for safety it would have indicated some comprehension of safety systems but you did not....

In some countries there are very lax building and safety regulations. In the UK you could do jail time if someone is hurt and it is found that someone skipped steps or did not ensure all risks were fully removed in the design/ installation.

So at that, I will leave this thread and wish you well with your projects.

No space in UK jails!

 

[Erie Fred]

The problem in the west is compensation culture. Every time anybody gets hurt, in any way, they want to sue, and get money.

The ‘ambulance chaser’ mentality that we imported from the USA is the cause of much of it. And thus everything that we make, or use, or play with etc, has to be insured against injuring someone.

I once worked with a guy in the US whose father had had a very successful ladder manufacturing business. As time went by health and safety became more and more invasive. He was legally obliged to put warning stickers on every ladder he sold.

It got to the stage where there were 13 different stickers on each ladder. I forget what they all said but some were absolutely insane, such as ‘Do not climb this ladder without leaning it against a wall” or words to that effect.

He had to have very comprehensive insurance cover in case some clown still managed to hurt themself and automatically sued his for compensation. All that went onto the price of each ladder, until it was almost impossible to even sell them, so he shut up shop.

IIRC Werner ladder told in a 60 minutes interview about 15 years ago, that
75% of the price of the ladder is for lawyers & insurance.
II heard similar for a Cessna 150 just before they stopped building them.

I thought lawyers were hatched & bred in the UK, exported to over here.....