CE Marking / BS EN 1090

[Dimitri De Spiegeleer]

@ MidWalesWelder, the welds you described sound a little odd to me. Do you know to what standard they will be evaluated? 15614 or 9606?
And are those procedure qualifications or welder's qualifications, or both at once?
Will try to reply tomorrow, when I've got my standards with me.

For the BW, a single side weld qualifies a weldor for both single side and both sides, whereas a "both sides" doesn't qualify a single side.

And Hitch is 100% correct.

 

[Mid Wales welder]

@ MidWalesWelder, the welds you described sound a little odd to me. Do you know to what standard they will be evaluated? 15614 or 9606?
And are those procedure qualifications or welder's qualifications, or both at once?
Will try to reply tomorrow, when I've got my standards with me.

For the BW, a single side weld qualifies a weldor for both single side and both sides, whereas a "both sides" doesn't qualify a single side.

And Hitch is 100% correct.

I can't remember off the top of my head which standard it is to, I will have a look at work tomorrow. The tests are for both welder and procedure qualifications.

So do you know if the BW will be a single or multi run?

Hitch: that's what I thought, it's all about testing the stop/starts.

 

[Kent]

To make sure you've got the hang of them.
If you can do 4 good restarts in a bit of pipe, chances are you'll be fine when there is only 2...

oh I get the fact they want to see your stop starts (I mean why write it that way otherwise) what I don't get is a weld test should replicate what is actually done in the field. All said and done there is meant to be a competent QC in place in the time after you sit the test. I well remember doing a weld test for a GPO contract years ago (it might have been BT by then not sure) anyhow it was a dirty great fillet in good size plate, the actually job was no greater than 5mm, it seems so dumb to test out of the realm of what is being done. Remember is there not supposed to be internal checks made and an agreed std WP for each job taken on under this scheme?

 

[Kent]

A lot of it is stupid but that's just how it is, can only work with what we've got. As I said if it increases the overall knowledge that welders have then it can only be good, I've met so many people who just get given a mag gun and told 'there you go, your a welder now' and then when they go for their next job say 'Yeh I'm a welder' but have absolutely no clue. Had a guy at our place a few weeks ago and told him to do a triple run fillet and he layed down the root (which was Horrendous) then the second and third runs wearn't even touching each other, one just layed on the bottom plate and one on the top plate. This guy said he had been working as a 'welder' for 20years!

me thinks nobody checked his refferences

 

[Mid Wales welder]

@ MidWalesWelder, the welds you described sound a little odd to me. Do you know to what standard they will be evaluated? 15614 or 9606?

It's to 9606-1

 

[Mid Wales welder]

me thinks nobody checked his refferences

The ridiculous thing is, he did have his references checked!

 

[Dimitri De Spiegeleer]

9606-1 is welder's qualification.
Single or multi run doesn't make a difference (you do need three layers for the example below though), the total thickness of the deposited metal does.

So if you make eg. a 13 mm thick weld on 1/2" thick plates, you're good for everything thicker than 3mm.

 

[Mid Wales welder]

9606-1 is welder's qualification.
Single or multi run doesn't make a difference (you do need three layers for the example below though), the total thickness of the deposited metal does.

So if you make eg. a 13 mm thick weld on 1/2" thick plates, you're good for everything thicker than 3mm.

I'm not sure why I was told this was to establish the PQR's as well then, must be mistaken.
Thanks for the info, big help! I'll let you know how we got on tomorrow.

 

[Kent]

The ridiculous thing is, he did have his references checked!

Was the phone number phoning the past employer though Joking apart I have seen this similar in the past it speaks to me "weld test" first.

 

[Mid Wales welder]

9606-1 is welder's qualification.
Single or multi run doesn't make a difference (you do need three layers for the example below though), the total thickness of the deposited metal does.

So if you make eg. a 13 mm thick weld on 1/2" thick plates, you're good for everything thicker than 3mm.

So, the inspecter came today (about 10:30am) and I had to do the PQR quals and my welder qual was with that too, then the other bloke just had to do a welder qual. Got the single run and multi run fillets done (after a long time messing about with a dodgy welder) the pipe to plate I failed because of one tiny place that was 0.5mm under size (nightmare) but he needs to come back to do the butt weld because we ran out of time so I will just re do the pipe to plate then.
The tolerances were pretty strict, especially on the PQR tests. This was completely alien to me as I have never worked in an environment where weld sizes are checked like that. I was happy with the fillets in the end, just a shame about the pipe to plate, but I'll nail it next time.
The Butt weld has to be done with five runs! Which neither of us have ever done before so we will get a bit of practice in one those before he comes back in a couple of weeks.

 

[Kent]

if it was 0.5mm undersize, what was the maximum allowed? The reason I ask this is 0.5mm in one place really is a tough deal on such a weld unless all the rest was just on or just over min size. Split the allowance is usual to aim for otherwise you have no real jiggle room at either end

 

[Mid Wales welder]

if it was 0.5mm undersize, what was the maximum allowed? The reason I ask this is 0.5mm in one place really is a tough deal on such a weld unless all the rest was just on or just over min size. Split the allowance is usual to aim for otherwise you have no real jiggle room at either end

It had to be a 6mm fillet, so nothing under is allowed but can go up to 7.5mm. It is quite strict as it to establish a PQR from which the WPS's are written. The other guy who was just doing the welder qual had a bigger tolerance allowed.
It didn't help me that I was welding a different way to what I usually would (not that I weld pipe to plate very often), usually I would weld clockwise pushing twisting my wrist to keep a decent angle. But the inspector (who had been a welder for 25years) said he sees a lot of fails that way as the tourch angle tends to start off slightly steep, then come good, then finish slightly shallow. So he suggested welding anticlockwise just pushing the tourch round, so I had a couple of practice runs then took first attempt (get three attempts at the test). First one was oversize and hadn't quite covered the fish eyes all the way at end of last run (minimum four stop/starts), second go fish eyes coved but still over size, then third go bang on all the way round accept the one place just under.
It's all good though, I would have been ****ed off with myself if he wasn't coming back anyway to do the butt welds but I'll just have a bit of a practice and should hopefully nail that first go, it's all good experience lol.

 

[Kent]

It had to be a 6mm fillet, so nothing under is allowed but can go up to 7.5mm. It is quite strict as it to establish a PQR from which the WPS's are written. The other guy who was just doing the welder qual had a bigger tolerance allowed.
It didn't help me that I was welding a different way to what I usually would (not that I weld pipe to plate very often), usually I would weld clockwise pushing twisting my wrist to keep a decent angle. But the inspector (who had been a welder for 25years) said he sees a lot of fails that way as the tourch angle tends to start off slightly steep, then come good, then finish slightly shallow. So he suggested welding anticlockwise just pushing the tourch round, so I had a couple of practice runs then took first attempt (get three attempts at the test). First one was oversize and hadn't quite covered the fish eyes all the way at end of last run (minimum four stop/starts), second go fish eyes coved but still over size, then third go bang on all the way round accept the one place just under.
It's all good though, I would have been ****ed off with myself if he wasn't coming back anyway to do the butt welds but I'll just have a bit of a practice and should hopefully nail that first go, it's all good experience lol.

All is good then. BTW personally I should never trust a guy who says they have done something for 25 yrs or whatever as you never know was than 1yr x 25 times repeated over and over or 25 yrs of learning every day Did you mark the maximum on the test piece in any way?

 

[Mid Wales welder]

All is good then. BTW personally I should never trust a guy who says they have done something for 25 yrs or whatever as you never know was than 1yr x 25 times repeated over and over or 25 yrs of learning every day Did you mark the maximum on the test piece in any way?

I know what you mean, I always try to take it with a pinch of salt when someone's talking about experience. This guy was local though and chatting to him throughout the day you could tell he had the experience.
I find Its always better to work with people who are a lot more skilled than myself because that's the only way you learn.
No we didn't mark a maximum, to be honest I only thought of that afterwards. Is that allowed to be done? Scribe a line at max and just wash up to it?

 

[Kent]

I know what you mean, I always try to take it with a pinch of salt when someone's talking about experience. This guy was local though and chatting to him throughout the day you could tell he had the experience.
I find Its always better to work with people who are a lot more skilled than myself because that's the only way you learn.
No we didn't mark a maximum, to be honest I only thought of that afterwards. Is that allowed to be done? Scribe a line at max and just wash up to it?

Dunno I have never taken this test but I honestly don't know how you could be sure of making under without achieving it on what is a relatively small margin otherwise. Golden rule of tests IMO is think on and ask first - never just crack on. I think I make it quite plain in the thread that I think EN1090 creates extra cost and extra work to fix something that was never really broken anyhow

I sort of recon on you not failing your guys own work for 0.5mm smaller than it should be in future QC

 

[Mid Wales welder]

Dunno I have never taken this test but I honestly don't know how you could be sure of making under without achieving it on what is a relatively small margin otherwise. Golden rule of tests IMO is think on and ask first - never just crack on. I think I make it quite plain in the thread that I think EN1090 creates extra cost and extra work to fix something that was never really broken anyhow

I sort of recon on you not failing your guys own work for 0.5mm smaller than it should be in future QC

I'll give the bloke a ring tomorrow and see if it's allowed, if it is then that would be a big help and just have to worry about the butt weld then. This test is only to that standard for me as its to establish the PQR's, the welder coding the other guy did had a much greater tolerance. This was my first welder coding test I have ever done and it's defiantly been a learning experience, will be thinking about it and asking next time.
Haha, yes I won't be failing guys on that small a margin, although the tolerances won't be that tight so shouldn't really be an issue. The inspector we had said exactly the same thing "don't fail people for that, just make them aware of it".

 

[Dimitri De Spiegeleer]

It's nowhere written that you can't do that. This means that you can (that's the way standards work...)
In case he gives you a hard time about this, scribe the line 0.5mm too small, and make sure you weld over it. Problem solved.

 

[Mid Wales welder]

It's nowhere written that you can't do that. This means that you can (that's the way standards work...)
In case he gives you a hard time about this, scribe the line 0.5mm too small, and make sure you weld over it. Problem solved.

I'll have to put that to him when he next comes. I phoned him on Friday to ask about it and he had to think about it then said no, but think it might just be to cover himself. He's a pretty tidy bloke so I'm sure he would be fine about it. I haven't even had time to have another go because we are so busy but I'm gunna just practice a bit and get it so I can just do it every time without a line and then if he says it's ok then that will just be a bonus. Thanks again!

 

[Kent]

I'll have to put that to him when he next comes. I phoned him on Friday to ask about it and he had to think about it then said no, but think it might just be to cover himself. He's a pretty tidy bloke so I'm sure he would be fine about it. I haven't even had time to have another go because we are so busy but I'm gunna just practice a bit and get it so I can just do it every time without a line and then if he says it's ok then that will just be a bonus. Thanks again!

Sounds like the Man from Delmonte s evil twin to me- He says No! Tell you what I should pass him the torch and then measure his fillet for size, what was it again 0.5mm out of spec at one point

 

[Mid Wales welder]

Sounds like the Man from Delmonte s evil twin to me- He says No! Tell you what I should pass him the torch and then measure his fillet for size, what was it again 0.5mm out of spec at one point

Haha, I did actually ask him if he still did any welding and he said he gets asked that every time lol. Like I said I'm just going to practice when I get a spare minute, I should be welding at that standard anyway, I always strive to do the best I can!