CE Marking / BS EN 1090

[Kent]

Just wait for our next General election result

 

[Brad93]

This document has been revised in the meanwhile, and now contains two lists (both non-exhaustive).
One with things that do not fall under EN1090; one list with things that do fall under EN1090.
This is now still a draft, and will be signed beginning of december in Lisboa by the official EN1090 workgroup, and will then be spread.
Railings, handrails, canopies, balconies, ... as well as load-bearing beams, columns, silos and storage tanks, ... will fall under EN1090.
Fences that only serve to provide a visual boundary between eg. your garden and the street, as well as typical blacksmith craft (mailboxes, wheather cocks, ...) will be exempt from EN1090.

This would say otherwise... This is my local handrail supplier.

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2014/07/02/u-turn-sees-hand-rail-firms-exempted-from-ce-marks/

 

[Dimitri De Spiegeleer]

I'll post the document as soon as I'm allowed to. I'm quite sure they (your supplier) will have to stand corrected.
Anyway, this doesn't mean I concur with it all, I'm just delivering the message. I don't want to start the same debate again.

 

[Mid Wales welder]

Does this seem lagit? http://www.cdlconsultancy.co.uk/index.html I'm being sent on this RWC course, but every other course I have looked at is 4days and then 1day tests. So this has set alarm bells ringing.

 

[Dimitri De Spiegeleer]

EN1090 certification has in fact little to do with traditional "ISO 9001" quality control.
I've seen a few ISO/quality consultancy bureaus over here, offering EN1090 consultancy. While they probably know much better how to make procedures and flowcharts, they generally know little about welding. and EN1090-2 is a very technical code, which needs to be adressed according to EN1090-1 during the certification process. You want someone with a technical background to help you out with this.
(or you hire them for making your procedures, but you, as an RWC-B, need to hold his hand when writing the procedures.)

The link above mentions CE marking, this is already better than traditional quality certification. Machine directive comes to mind.
But unless they employ a (actual! not self called) Welding Engineer (or IWT/IWS, depending on your EXC class), that's not the option I'd choose or recommend.

But hey, I'm biased, I'll let someone other offer you his/her opinion.

 

[shesmond]

Dimitri,

What has the EN1090 workgroup got do do with deciding what should be CE marked? As I understand it EN1090 is called up by the Construction Product Regulations. The requirement to CE mark, or not, is in the CPR. EN1090 defines the actions required to CE mark. Technically this workgroup can go and decide whatever they like but if it is not in the CPR then it has no legal standing

 

[Dimitri De Spiegeleer]

What you say is technically correct, however the decisions of the several EN workgroups have a certain status, similar to the Guidelines. (This is not something that only applies to the EN1090)
The CPR is not always (now there's an understatement) very clear on its scope. This documents clarifies both the CPR and the EN1090.
In case of a discussion (e.g. in court), when the CPR or the 1090 have some "wiggle room", the position of this document will be followed.

These kind of documents do not alter the standards, they elaborate on them where they are not precise enough.

 

[Kent]

Is there a hint here that we have too many rules, regs and documents and Laws already? I suspect there is.

 

[Mid Wales welder]

Hello all, I have posted this in the brew room but thought it may be more relevant in this thread. I was just wondering if there are any RWC's or welding coordinators on here that would be kind enough to let me pick their brains about a couple of things?
Background - I am a welder/fabricator working for a small company in mid wales. Because of this CE marking coming into force the company has had to appoint an RWC and because I had the most technical knowledge (being the youngest and left collage only 10years ago, and generally having a passion for welding) the boss decided that I was best suited for this roll. So I got sent on the RWC course last week, even though I did well on the course (got 90% in first paper and 98% in the second) and took an board a lot of information, it was only a two day course and have no experience of this job roll. So I am lacking a bit in confidence and still have a few questions with not really anyone to ask. As we are a small company and don't really do any work that falls under EN 1090 at the moment (the boss wants to have the CE marking as a future proffing aspect) once I have written the pWPS's and got them qualified I won't really have much to do after that, and as there is only myself and one other welder that will be doing CE work I won't even have much inspecting to do. It's just going to be getting from where we are no to the point where everything is set up that's going to be the hard part. So any info and advice I could get would be very much appreciated. The questions I have at the moment are to do with material selection, getting the pWPS's qualified and whether the 5% NDT can be done in house by myself or if this needs to be done externally?

Sorry in advance for such a long post and if this post is not in the relevant place.

Kind regards

Dave.

 

[Dimitri De Spiegeleer]

What about material selection?
pWPS's get qualified by welding a WPQR for a NoBo, they will attest the validity. Then you basically have to redo your WPS's so to have an as large as possible workfield (eg a fillet weld from plates 4-40mm can be a single WPS, but need multiple WPQR's to cover the whole range).
The person who does NDT needs to be qualified for the methods he does (PT, MT, visual). If you get certified, you can do it yourself.

You will need a FPC manual for your workplace, and several forms/procedures. Most likely, someplace in the UK (like the BCSA, or an independant IWE consultant, ...) will sell the templates. Cost a bit, but you only have to fill in the blanks and check what's applicable for your particular situation.

 

[Welderpaul]

Background - I am a welder/fabricator working for a small company in mid wales. Because of this CE marking coming into force the company has had to appoint an RWC and because I had the most technical knowledge (being the youngest and left collage only 10years ago, and generally having a passion for welding) the boss decided that I was best suited for this roll. So I got sent on the RWC course last week, even though I did well on the course (got 90% in first paper and 98% in the second) and took an board a lot of information, it was only a two day course and have no experience of this job roll. So I am lacking a bit in confidence and still have a few questions with not really anyone to ask. As we are a small company and don't really do any work that falls under EN 1090 at the moment (the boss wants to have the CE marking as a future proffing aspect) once I have written the pWPS's and got them qualified I won't really have much to do after that, and as there is only myself and one other welder that will be doing CE work I won't even have much inspecting to do. It's just going to be getting from where we are no to the point where everything is set up that's going to be the hard part. So any info and advice I could get would be very much appreciated. The questions I have at the moment are to do with material selection, getting the pWPS's qualified and whether the 5% NDT can be done in house by myself or if this needs to be done externally?

Fair play, you've done well there!
But...Sounds like your boss has gone around it the hard way and spent too much money.
The RWC doesn't have to be an employee of the company. Once your procedures are approved, welding manual signed off, and the welders coded, completed weld inspection tests, the only requirement for the RWC under BS1090 is to 'pop in' to review and sign off the general standard of work being produced - twice a year minimum I believe but I'd need to check that.

We employ a subcontract RWC who is on the end of the phone if we need her, and available to sort out any additional WPS's we need doing, as well as testing any new welders that start. Because we have spent a fair few quid on WPS's and welder testing etc they are on a free 'retainer', so there whenever we need them. They do this sort of thing day in and day out, so cheaper and a better job to get them to do it rather than you, with respect, floundering and trying to sort out what you need to do.

Other than that it is just a formality that you 'have' an RWC and of course a name to put on the 1090 certificate.
I see of a lot of fabricators who have done this - no need, but seeing how much miss information is out there regarding CE Marking, not a surprise really. Bigger companies of course, it may well be worth them having their own RWC.

There is such a shortage of RWC's (Particularly those who can do EXC 3 and 4) once you have gained some experience there could be a lucrative career path for you?

 

[Dimitri De Spiegeleer]

There is such a shortage of RWC's (Particularly those who can do EXC 3 and 4) once you have gained some experience there could be a lucrative career path for you?

True, but there's a "but". Get some experience, pay close attention when the NoBo comes for certifying, read up on the standards (what's necessary for the other exc. classes), but bear in mind for the higher exc classes you'll need either specific or comprehensive knowledge, instead of the Basic course you've followed now. You need to "proof" that either by an oral interview with the NoBo, or by showing him your credentials (IWT diploma). Currently there's tons of work for RWC-B (basic) though.

 

[Mid Wales welder]

What about material selection?
pWPS's get qualified by welding a WPQR for a NoBo, they will attest the validity. Then you basically have to redo your WPS's so to have an as large as possible workfield (eg a fillet weld from plates 4-40mm can be a single WPS, but need multiple WPQR's to cover the whole range).
The person who does NDT needs to be qualified for the methods he does (PT, MT, visual). If you get certified, you can do it yourself.

You will need a FPC manual for your workplace, and several forms/procedures. Most likely, someplace in the UK (like the BCSA, or an independant IWE consultant, ...) will sell the templates. Cost a bit, but you only have to fill in the blanks and check what's applicable for your particular situation.

Hi, sorry I have taken so long to reply. Flat out with work and a teething 6month old baby haven't given me much time this week lol.
So my question about material selection is, going from table 6 in the pic would I be right in thinking if a fillet weld is done on 30mm then that would qualify all fillets 5mm and above?
So I would basically right a pWPS, weld a test piece in accordance to that and if everything looks right then write a WQPR for the NoBo to test?
This is where I then get confused because I was told that it's the PQR that needs to have as wider range as possible and then from that many supporting WPS's can be written? As the WPS is given to the welder this would make more sense to me. Sorry if I'm being completely dense here lol.
We have our FPC manual, I've only had a quick glance at it so far though, do you know what forms/procedures I need out of it?

 

[Mid Wales welder]

Fair play, you've done well there!
But...Sounds like your boss has gone around it the hard way and spent too much money.
The RWC doesn't have to be an employee of the company. Once your procedures are approved, welding manual signed off, and the welders coded, completed weld inspection tests, the only requirement for the RWC under BS1090 is to 'pop in' to review and sign off the general standard of work being produced - twice a year minimum I believe but I'd need to check that.

We employ a subcontract RWC who is on the end of the phone if we need her, and available to sort out any additional WPS's we need doing, as well as testing any new welders that start. Because we have spent a fair few quid on WPS's and welder testing etc they are on a free 'retainer', so there whenever we need them. They do this sort of thing day in and day out, so cheaper and a better job to get them to do it rather than you, with respect, floundering and trying to sort out what you need to do.

Other than that it is just a formality that you 'have' an RWC and of course a name to put on the 1090 certificate.
I see of a lot of fabricators who have done this - no need, but seeing how much miss information is out there regarding CE Marking, not a surprise really. Bigger companies of course, it may well be worth them having their own RWC.

There is such a shortage of RWC's (Particularly those who can do EXC 3 and 4) once you have gained some experience there could be a lucrative career path for you?

As above sorry for taking so long to reply. Yes I have been very lucky to get the opportunity to do this, it's such a massive jump for me. I see what you mean about RWC not having to be employed by company but does the company not still have to have a welding coordinator for the daily checking i.e pre, during and post wiling checks? Part of the course was weld inspection. I will also need to be checking materials and if required working out pre heat temps etc. But yes it's certainly not a full time job, especially as I will be one of the only two coded welder doing the CE stuff anyway, so it's mainly checking myself lol!
There is certainly a lot of mis information about EN1090, everyone seems to have a different story about it. I just want to get my head into this for now but yes in a few years If I can take on enough info and gain that experience I would love to move onto bigger things and yes hopefully make a bit of moneys!

 

[Dimitri De Spiegeleer]

1) So my question about material selection is, going from table 6 in the pic would I be right in thinking if a fillet weld is done on 30mm then that would qualify all fillets 5mm and above?

2) So I would basically right a pWPS, weld a test piece in accordance to that and if everything looks right then write a WQPR for the NoBo to test?

1) yes, a multi layer fillet weld on two pieces of steel each >= 30mm will qualify all multi layer fillet welds on steel >= 5mm thick
2) you write a pWPS for that, weld a piece for a NoBo, they make the PQR and you can write WPS'ses based on that PQR.

There's a change though on your document: Table 6, second row (3 < t < 30) qualifies 0.5 t (3 min) to 2 t (not 1.2 t), see ISO 15614-1:2004/Amd.2:2012

 

[Mid Wales welder]

1) yes, a multi layer fillet weld on two pieces of steel each >= 30mm will qualify all multi layer fillet welds on steel >= 5mm thick
2) you write a pWPS for that, weld a piece for a NoBo, they make the PQR and you can write WPS'ses based on that PQR.

There's a change though on your document: Table 6, second row (3 < t < 30) qualifies 0.5 t (3 min) to 2 t (not 1.2 t), see ISO 15614-1:2004/Amd.2:2012

That's brilliant, thanks very much for your help. We are on shut down now until the new year so won't be doing anything until then. We are still in the early stages at the moment but it will be good to get stuck in.
Do you mind if I ask what type of work you do?
Could I be cheeky and ask if I can message you in the future if I get stuck on something? Any help is greatly appreciated!

Thanks again!

 

[Dimitri De Spiegeleer]

no problem :-)

I'm an independent (since beginning of 2014) certified welding engineer, with some years experience in railroad, large metal fabrication and off shore (and quite some hands-on experience).
I am consulting mostly for firms who use high-end steel types (welding and repair procedures, design and calculation, heat treatment, ... mostly for piping), but lately I've jumped on the EN1090-bandwagon as there is a huge market for that at the time being. and a lack of RWC's.

Please ask your questions here (as opposed to PM), as sometimes there might be differences Belgium <-> UK, that I'm not aware of and that other forum members might know or maybe other guys can help you out as well.
So everyone can benefit - that's the main reason of a forum, right?

 

[backpurge]

Well said Dimitri

 

[Mid Wales welder]

no problem :-)

I'm an independent (since beginning of 2014) certified welding engineer, with some years experience in railroad, large metal fabrication and off shore (and quite some hands-on experience).
I am consulting mostly for firms who use high-end steel types (welding and repair procedures, design and calculation, heat treatment, ... mostly for piping), but lately I've jumped on the EN1090-bandwagon as there is a huge market for that at the time being. and a lack of RWC's.

Please ask your questions here (as opposed to PM), as sometimes there might be differences Belgium <-> UK, that I'm not aware of and that other forum members might know or maybe other guys can help you out as well.
So everyone can benefit - that's the main reason of a forum, right?

Sounds like you are in a good position there! How did you become a welding engineer? Did you start out wanting to do that? I don't think it will be too long before there are plenty of basic RWC's, judging by the amount of courses running. This is all very new to me, been on the tools for over 10years but RWC is a lot of theory so defiantly a change. I'm just lacking confidence at the moment so need all the help I can get lol!
I rarely PM people as, like you say, this is a forum meant to help people. I will just quote you in a post if I want to ask a specific question.

 

[Dimitri De Spiegeleer]

I started as a weldor for some time, before getting a position as mechanical engineer (what I went to uni for) in a different company. That was steel construction, but they did some heavy repair work that time, also on some specialty steels. As we faced quite some problems, and as none of the other engineers really knew something about welding nor weren't interested, I was sent back to uni for a MSc in welding engineering. I passed the IWE (international welding engineer) exams soon after that, worked for some time for a few different companies and finally started out on my own.
Thx for the heads up. I know I'm lucky, I'm indeed in a good position now.