CE Marking / BS EN 1090

[Tigman]

ive not been asked for en 1090 from anyone but Harrow Council !

welding Certs yes , from most

only had one drawing from Structural Engineers stating all steel must be En 1090

 

[Kent]

ive not been asked for en 1090 from anyone but Harrow Council !

welding Certs yes , from most

only had one drawing from Structural Engineers stating all steel must be En 1090

Pretty much the same other than no council as yet. I don't actually do regular style structural work but 1090 tried to take in too much scope ( some of which I have seen legal people discount under the very word structural being used) brundels have a good one up on thier site regarding handrails
The comment about " wanting to go bust" was unfounded other than doing something that likely won't ever become actively used. Of course this is my opinion but I am far from alone
Better things by far could have been done but hey that's the eu and shows the result of mainland Europe large company lobbies on know nothing politicians

 

[Dimitri De Spiegeleer]

The comment about " wanting to go bust" was unfounded other than doing something that likely won't ever become actively used

Apart from the discussion whether or not the UK will continue with this EN standard, my point of view was:

When an inspector tells you to follow this EN1090, I suspect he wants you to do it correctly. But then telling you to go for EXC1, is just plain stupid as there is no work in EXC1. Meaning going bust, as you cannot accept EXC2 projects.

Either you do as Kent and many others, or you do it according to the EN1090 rules. But there really isn't a middle way. Any middle way is a waste of money that you invested in getting certified, as in the end the documents you should deliver to your client isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

 

[Kent]

But if the firm isn't looking at work within 2 why should it want it
To be fair the greatest majority are not doing any of it and are far from going bust
More likely the firm that stretches themselves to achieve new types of work will go bust and or those that chase every darn standard, regulation and qualification going
Was just a daft comment to make though I get your point why do ex 1
A much as are media tries to spin things I personally doubt we will stay in

 

[Welderpaul]

The companies that boil my wee are those who blatantly ignore 1090 and continue to fab structural steelwork. I know of two outfits that are buying off cuts of beams and columns from the scrap yard and fabricate using them. Unbelievable.
Their work is shocking. I've dropped them in it a few times and will continue to do so.

 

[Shox Dr]

The companies that boil my wee are those who blatantly ignore 1090 and continue to fab structural steelwork. I know of two outfits that are buying off cuts of beams and columns from the scrap yard and fabricate using them. Unbelievable.
Their work is shocking. I've dropped them in it a few times and will continue to do so.

So how do they continue to work?

I feel this is the problem we find in every part of our lives now. They are quick to force us to comply with more and more legisation, and laws. Yet fail to police, with enough force and justice, to convince whoever it wasnt just another twist of the screw.

 

[Welderpaul]

So how do they continue to work?

Because there is no one to 'police it'. I was told, rightly or wrongly, the Dpt of Trade and Industry police it. So.....

 

[Kent]

The issue is it opens up more of a gap for the cowboys to fill ( they thrive on these things).
No small shops can Forfill the requirements though a lot of these guys are top class. So they don't do it ( in fact as I told another good small fabricator I doubt he will get insurance cover now it's due)
So what we get is total cowboys. Cash in hand and no public liability worth a jot
Happened in every other area they meddled in from fisheries to electrics etc.
I have yet to meet a building inspector that gave one for it
Another firm I work with has some real good guys making stuff like waggon trailers and big pipework jobs
They are just starting through the process for ex 2 and the shop floor head guy didn't even
Know until the boss told him
Now some of the pipe jobs you can walk into the bore. Some of the waggon backs have the biggest darn axles I have seen ( so why? Do they need this EN 1090)

 

[snowcat]

The issue is it opens up more of a gap for the cowboys to fill ( they thrive on these things).
No small shops can Forfill the requirements though a lot of these guys are top class. So they don't do it ( in fact as I told another good small fabricator I doubt he will get insurance cover now it's due)
So what we get is total cowboys. Cash in hand and no public liability worth a jot
Happened in every other area they meddled in from fisheries to electrics etc.
I have yet to meet a building inspector that gave one for it
Another firm I work with has some real good guys making stuff like waggon trailers and big pipework jobs
They are just starting through the process for ex 2 and the shop floor head guy didn't even
Know until the boss told him
Now some of the pipe jobs you can walk into the bore. Some of the waggon backs have the biggest darn axles I have seen ( so why? Do they need this EN 1090)

I have to agree with much of that, I can carry insurance to nail together trailers, install boilers repair ships but 1090 puts the cosh on structual

The issue is it opens up more of a gap for the cowboys to fill ( they thrive on these things).
No small shops can Forfill the requirements though a lot of these guys are top class. So they don't do it ( in fact as I told another good small fabricator I doubt he will get insurance cover now it's due)
So what we get is total cowboys. Cash in hand and no public liability worth a jot
Happened in every other area they meddled in from fisheries to electrics etc.
I have yet to meet a building inspector that gave one for it
Another firm I work with has some real good guys making stuff like waggon trailers and big pipework jobs
They are just starting through the process for ex 2 and the shop floor head guy didn't even
Know until the boss told him
Now some of the pipe jobs you can walk into the bore. Some of the waggon backs have the biggest darn axles I have seen ( so why? Do they need this EN 1090)

Cant really disagree with that, Legislation only ever stops the honest and those who have the consonance to a decent job anyhow. The cowboys will continue to cut corners and bodge, and if anyone starts to put the pressure on them there be bankrupt without a single asset and disappear for 12 months just to reinvent themselves under a different guise.

I haven't noticed legislation working especially well on Solar, Double glazing or telemarketing company's.

 

[Kent]

Remove people from the list of competitors. Especially smaller firms and you open up a market gap
It's the gap that is them taken up by proper cowboys
If the small local shops could take on this work as they have for many years there would be no great amount of cash in hand totally unqualified and uninsured people bodging

 

[Bede]

This 1090 is becoming a pain in the **** and I have no idea whether it's worth me acquiring it or not.

We're currently having a drive to pick up new customers. I've had an enquiry through today from a potential new customer for a platform. We build them all the time as a subcontract fabrication business - always from companies with their own design office so we just build to their design spec. I have never yet been asked to comply with 1090 - I guess the compliance is on their design and everything is all sorted with their design documentation. Now and then we'll get asked for material test certs and have stuff mpi'd but that's it.

Now, this new client needs 1090 compliance and documentation. I need to have it designed by an approved body as they have just submitted weights and footprint details and require the design doing with the build and installation as a whole package. Can I get it designed by a CE registered structural engineer, submit material and weld certs and that's all boxes ticked or do I need to be 1090 certified myself?

It's a huge pain in the **** that, to me at present, has so many grey areas. I'm going to have to buy a consultation with someone to clarify exactly what I do and don't need to do.

I do work for a much bigger subcontract engineering firm than me and they have no need for EN 1090 compliance. Can't get my head around it. They build huge water treatment plants all around the world for a leading company - of which some work gets subbed to me, and all they require is welding docs, yet I need 1090 to build a bread and butter simple bloody access platform?

 

[Dimitri De Spiegeleer]

I could say some things, but I'm afraid none of what you want to hear.
I'll keep it short...

Now, this new client needs 1090 compliance and documentation.

Uhmmmm, well, no, not the client's fault, that's because it is the law.

I need to have it designed by an approved body

No such thing exists. It needs to be designed and calculated correctly. You cannot get approved for this. You (or the bureau that does this for you) do however have to do the design in compliance with the european structural design codes, the Eurocodes.

Can I get it designed by a CE registered structural engineer, submit material and weld certs and that's all boxes ticked

Nope, again, a "CE" registered structural engineer doesn't exist.

or do I need to be 1090 certified myself?

That's actually the only way to do so, if you want to proceed with this.
Your certification will be a FPC, Factory Production Control system, meaning that it is all about how you fab this up, in your workshop, with your tools, and has actually very little to do with the structural design or the completed piece.

 

[Bede]

Thanks.

Clearly, I'm not going to proceed with this as I'm not 1090 certified. We're purely a small sub-contract fabrication business, not design, hence my mention of involving a structural engineer to provide calcs etc.

It's something I am now going to look into more closely. It will hinder my business going forward if I don't get it done.

 

[Dimitri De Spiegeleer]

Good luck, there's quite a bit of info in this thread which can get you started...

 

[WorkshopChris]

It's something I am now going to look into more closely. It will hinder my business going forward if I don't get it done.

I started looking at this recently, as i understand the situation i can produce parts to an approved design. Submit sample welds for approval and testing, acquire certs from suppliers and fully document. Use a calibrated mig to an approved welding procedure.
But to be able to CE mark i need to employ an approved consultant to tick the boxes.
Thats the bit that gets me. Its the only bit i can not do and it's no only part that has no relevance to the safety or quality of the work.

I may have the above wrong as i have only just started looking at this but that's my understanding so far.

 

[Dimitri De Spiegeleer]

Submit sample welds for approval and testing, acquire certs from suppliers and fully document. Use a calibrated mig to an approved welding procedure.

Most of this is correct, but is a such very minor detail that it's more like a joke.

sample welds need to be checked using NDT methods, but only once, 5 pieces/900mm per WPS.
yes, you need certs from steel mills, that's true. that's not really that big of a deal.
a calibrated mig? yes, actually a validated MIG, as it does not need to be adjusted but you can use yours "as is", even without a dial that shows the amps.
an approved welding procedure? I'll write you one and I'll "approve" it, as long as you don't buy chinese filler all manufacturers have all the certifications that you need to show. This costs me 30 seconds.


The easiest way to get prepared for your certification is to have a consultant set up your system, tailored to your company. This is the most [strikethrough]difficult [/strikethrough] work-intensive part, as you need documentation of almost everything you do.
Once this is done, you should get certified.
After this, in EXC2, all you have to do is to keep a file per project that contains the most important information, like the inspection plan, the work you subbed like hot dip galvanisation or powdercoating, and your CE+DoP.
No more consultant needed.

 

[Kent]

Good luck bede - just remember we have a referendum.to stop people in Brussels making our laws without being asked

 

[Dimitri De Spiegeleer]

Maybe should the UK delegate in this workgroup grow a pair, so that the other countries would actually listen to the UK point of view...

 

[Kent]

Our guys are too busy looking for thier next job when we chuck them out of the one they hold
It will change its going to be very unfortunate if it's not soon by the ballot box because history speaks

 

[Bede]

Good luck bede - just remember we have a referendum.to stop people in Brussels making our laws without being asked

Cheers - that's the thing that bothers me the most! How long will EN 1090 last (If we stay in Europe) before it's tinkered with again and yet more goalposts are moved at more cost etc.