CE Marking / BS EN 1090

[Kent]

Cheers - that's the thing that bothers me the most! How long will EN 1090 last (If we stay in Europe) before it's tinkered with again and yet more goalposts are moved at more cost etc.

That's a very good point and what we commonly get with this eu, who jump in feet first from the pressure of lobbies from big buisness trying to get ever bigger slices of pie
Just remember it when your at the voting station

 

[TechnicAl]

In one way "moving the goalposts" has a positive effect in that it needs constant monitoring which is what the cheats and chancers wont do. Constant change makes it more difficult for those who are not really involved but make erroneous claims.
The imposition of these "rules" are designed to help the genuine firms maintain standards, and prices, when confronted by the cowboy outfits. Unfortunately they are self policing so it appears nothing ever happens but they do have an effect which can be seen by the now widespread knowledge and contact.

 

[Kent]

I have no issue with things like this on large contracts
The thing is there wasn't a real problem to fix in my Experiance

 

[TechnicAl]

Ive been out of the loop for a while so I dont really know but remember this is a European initiative and it could have been a big issue somewhere else.

So depending on your views its introduction here can be thought to stop the issues or spreading or another Brussels madness

 

[Kent]

The only big issue was fat cats in the rest of the eu wanting a slice of UK construction

People here often forget that large contracts have to go eu wide for tendering if there is any amount of government money in the project
In fact scrub that it's not very big if you consider steelworks general cost.

What we will / are ending up with is a gap for real cowboys ( cash in hand never trained chancers) same happened with part p many sparks said forget it I can easy get by with my other work as kitchen and bathroom refits are more trouble than they are worth.
Good lads replaced by total numpties who did a night school course or did nothing and only take cash in hand. So it's not unprecedented by any means

 

[TechnicAl]

I really dont know where your information is gained as Ive never seen any statistics.

My comments refer to the principals which are worthwhile..........whether they work or not I do not know

 

[matt1978]

Hi Kent,

I agree with some of the points you've made in the past regarding this topic but I think one thing you've overlooked is the fact that a lot of "big" and national jobs are usually tendered for by outfits that would of already had all but in name all the neccesary requirements to be EN 1090 approved, so the leap for them was nothing like what the smaller guys have had to do

They would of already had qualified welders and qualified procedures and something akin to a FPC.

 

[Kent]

Matt
That's exactly my point there wasn't an issue. We are finding out quickly the eu is run by lobbies
I have worked in these shops years back and there wasn't any numpties qc was part of daily life one place had a guy that just watched people doing thier jobs
The only steel collapse I am aware of was that car showroom recently and that was some structural engineers fault and his computer program
Watch this space Blackburn bus station! First steel firm Watsons ? Come to mind / memory raised concerns about the safety of the design! Blackburn council sacked them and brought in another firm
Of course it will be 1090 but who takes the fall.?
The problem wasn't in the shop and 1090 took in too much - because the pro lobbies didn't get the trade and neither did many that employed thier services
The industry now picks up the bills and deals with the anomalies of poorly thought through legislation
What is the score with dog kennels? A building that people regularly enter but is primarily for animal housing ( do we trust a non 1090 firm to " build a dog kennel")?

 

[TechnicAl]

There was Ramsgate and the the Queen Mary collapse......just 2 off the top of my head

 

[matt1978]

A dog kennel would be exc 1 as far as EN1090 is concerned.

My point was about your thoughts about it being a back door way of allowing other European firms the chance to quote on our large structural steel projects by forcing our companies to conform to something alien to them and I was saying that for that level and size of company it was more a case of requalifing what they already have and already did on a daily basis anyway. So it wasn't a massive issue for them to become accredited.

The big issues of becoming accredited came for the 3-20 man outfits and these sort of companies wouldn't of been quoting on large or national projects anyway

 

[Kent]

No there would be no great competitive advantage in that one.

It's 2 I think because humans have daily access? " wouldn't trust them to make a dog kennel "comes to mind

Matt you work for a German firm I am sure you see the systems they use for everything. But no it was just so there was an eu wide standard so say a polish firm couldn't be passed over say after it presented the best prices

The detrimental thing as I see it is taking in too much scope ( which it has) the sort of work that was done with hands on bosses and very few if any back office staff to keep up the record keeping

It isn't this latter point were the real cowboys will take advantage.

 

[Kent]

There was Ramsgate and the the Queen Mary collapse......just 2 off the top of my head

But like I mention it's not fixed if we take into account the fact it still happens as in the case mentioned. If we go back 80 years and record failures in that build time and then do it again it's 160 years to gain worthwhile data because we have to test both groups

 

[matt1978]

Agricultural buildings like Barns, Cow sheds/Pig Pens etc fall into EXC 1. I see Dog kennels would be the same.

Its not about humans having daily access.

The EXC Classes are derived by the Consequence Class, if the structure failed and the subsequent risk to human life and also the Production Category (eg the manufacturing techniques and the materials used) and service category. EXC 1 would be applied for dog kennels....unless it was a multi-story dog kennel with an office block on top.

 

[Kent]

I think we have been here before on the thread

 

[matt1978]

Even if it was EXC 1 (which I am 100% sure a dog kennel would fall into, assuming you are talking about a commercial dog kennel and not a private use one in someones back garden) then the company would still need to be EN 1090 accredited, but to be honest in order to get EXC 1 status it is very simple. No welding procedures etc required.

 

[TechnicAl]

But like I mention it's not fixed if we take into account the fact it still happens as in the case mentioned. If we go back 80 years and record failures in that build time and then do it again it's 160 years to gain worthwhile data because we have to test both groups

These were both before the introduction but thats not the point. If you introduce compulsory checks you MUST improve the situation and reduce the number of variables that need investigating if the need arises.
Our food is a good example...........more checks these days ............less food poisoning

 

[Dimitri De Spiegeleer]

The EXC Classes are derived by the Consequence Class, if the structure failed and the subsequent risk to human life and also the Production Category (eg the manufacturing techniques and the materials used) and service category.

Consequence Class (CC) comes from the Eurocodes,
PC and SC are mentioned in the EN1090-2 Annex B, which is an informative annex.
With the publication of a normative annex to a certain part of the Eurocodes in 2014, Annex B of EN1090-2 is obsolete.
A normative annex has priority over an informative one.

EXC classes are now to be completely determined following the eurocodes, Production Category is of no use anymore (and actually, never was, as for S355 already WPQR's are asked according EN15614, and stainless steel wasn't mentioned. useless.).

 

[matt1978]

So what is the criteria now for determining EXC Class?

Just the CC?

 

[Dimitri De Spiegeleer]

CC and static/dynamic loading (so basically the SC), from EXC1 to EXC3, with a whole lot of footnotes.
Keep also in mind, in the new version of the EN1090, the EXC classes will be EXC1 much more predominantly, 2 and 3.
EXC4 will be prescribed only in very specific cases, and the demands for EXC4 will be a lot higher.

This is a good change, as EXC1 will become much more common.
And governement institutions will be refrained for prescribing EXC4 for each simple thing, as the costs will be enormous to fulfill these demands.

 

[matt1978]

So does this mean the criteria for a fabricator to become EXC 1 accredited is now much higher?