Electric cars and the grid..... it has begun.

[T689]

The grid is already in a mess - London came very close to a blackout last week. All this extra demand from electric cars will not help.
Had to pay Belgium a fortune to avoid a shut down.

How London Paid a Record Price to Dodge a Blackout

The UK heat wave also saw an unhappy benchmark in the energy crisis.

www.bloomberg.com

Also, the most productive Nuclear Power Station the country has ever had - Hinkley point B permanently shutdown one of its two reactors last month on 6th July 22, and the second one will be permanently shutdown next week/Monday 1st August, after going online in Feb 1976 - 46 years of power generation.

In its lifetime it has generated the enough electricity to power every home in the South West, from Land’s End to Tewkesbury for 33 years.

 

[fizzy]

An ICE Nissan Qashqui and and EV Nissan Leaf both weigh around 1600kg depending on model.

Batteries are down low so a low centre of gravity.

So can't see your argument making sense unless your comparing a Caterham with a model S

Come on - you have a scientific mind. Laws of Physics have to apply!
The Qashqai is heavier now as it is a hybrid.
Leaf has 215 tyres - they won't fit wider due to range.
Qashqai typically has 235s fitted. More rubber for same weight bound to stop quicker.
It is only when you drive something like a Caterham that you realise how much of a difference weight makes. I reckon that is why Hammond had such a bad crash in that electric supercar. Yes it was stupidly fast - but he forgot about all that extra mass.

 

[PhillipM]

That's because of the sheer level of performance of a caterham and that the suspension is rock hard compared to a daily.
In terms of actual suspension dynamics a Caterham is pretty ****.

 

[PhillipM]

In the last few months i have noticed at least 5 new evs in our road & surrounding ones, seems we see a new one every week. Most will be used for short runs but most are big electric suv's because thats what mummy wants to run the kids to school. These have great fat tyres & are big heavy cars so hardly efficient.

Weight barely matters for an EV for efficiency. What you use to get it up to speed you get back in regenerative braking. It's far less of a concern than a normal ICE powered car.
These days the worst thing about extra weight is tyre and brake wear, etc. But brake wear isn't a problem in EV's either because of regen.

 

[Fastdruid]

Nope - laws of physics. Think about it. Electric cars are quite a bit heavier than the IC equivalent. They also tend to have thinner tyres to reduce rolling resistance. It is pretty obvious that a car say 500kg heavier on 225 tyres will not stop as quickly as a lighter car on the same or wider tyres.

On a semi-related note it appears that a number of modern cars are failing the "Moose" test due to the tyres fitted for fuel efficiency.

Ford Fiesta doesn't like to turn in the moose test

The Ford Fiesta has generally performed well in moose tests but not this year since the company decided to go for tires meant to improve fuel economy.

uk.motor1.com

Skoda Octavia Combi RS fails moose test but it isn't its fault

The Skoda Octavia Combi RS is said to be responsive on the highway and on curvy roads, but it was a bit disappointing in the dreaded moose test.

uk.motor1.com

 

[brewdexta]

Come on - you have a scientific mind. Laws of Physics have to apply!
The Qashqai is heavier now as it is a hybrid.
Leaf has 215 tyres - they won't fit wider due to range.
Qashqai typically has 235s fitted. More rubber for same weight bound to stop quicker.
It is only when you drive something like a Caterham that you realise how much of a difference weight makes. I reckon that is why Hammond had such a bad crash in that electric supercar. Yes it was stupidly fast - but he forgot about all that extra mass.

OK, Qashqai was a bad choice for comparison. A ford focus is a similar size car.

Ford Focus 1.5L ecoblue 1454kg

Leaf Acenta 39kWh 1580kg

Leaf e+Tekna 59kWh 1709kg

So the difference in weight is less than the standard MiL

And the weights down low.

 

[Greeves246]

But there aren’t any mooses ( Meese?) in this country .

 

[fizzy]

Weight barely matters for an EV for efficiency. What you use to get it up to speed you get back in regenerative braking. It's far less of a concern than a normal ICE powered car.
These days the worst thing about extra weight is tyre and brake wear, etc. But brake wear isn't a problem in EV's either because of regen.

Regenerative braking doesn't give it all back by any means. Tesla claim 64%. So dragging that extra weight up hills is not a good idea. Why do you think engineers have spent so many years trying to make things lighter?

 

[rtcosic]

...

So the difference in weight is less than the standard MiL
..

Here we go again.

I still haven't got clarification on how many Forum Standard Mugs to 1 Forum Standard Kim and now we have the introduction of a Forum Standard MiL.

So a 255kg < FS MiL < ???kg, but that's a big margin!

 

[Fastdruid]

Come on - you have a scientific mind. Laws of Physics have to apply!
The Qashqai is heavier now as it is a hybrid.
Leaf has 215 tyres - they won't fit wider due to range.
Qashqai typically has 235s fitted. More rubber for same weight bound to stop quicker.
It is only when you drive something like a Caterham that you realise how much of a difference weight makes. I reckon that is why Hammond had such a bad crash in that electric supercar. Yes it was stupidly fast - but he forgot about all that extra mass.

While I'm 100% behind you on the lower weight is better it doesn't exactly work like that with tyres (or anything friction related). Wider rubber is to allow acceptable wear rates on stickier rubber (and it's the stickier rubber that gives more grip rather than the tyre widths).

 

[PhillipM]

Regenerative braking doesn't give it all back by any means. Tesla claim 64%. So dragging that extra weight up hills is not a good idea. Why do you think engineers have spent so many years trying to make things lighter?

Doesn't give it all back no, but gives back far, far more than the difference in weight between an ICE and an electric makes.

 

[PhillipM]

While I'm 100% behind you on the lower weight is better it doesn't exactly work like that with tyres (or anything friction related). Wider rubber is to allow acceptable wear rates on stickier rubber (and it's the stickier rubber that gives more grip rather than the tyre widths).

Yep, until you actually physically overload a carcass, even doubling the weight on a given tyre size will only reduce outright grip by about 5-7% on the average road tyre. And actually makes the tyre less peaky and more benign in terms of handling traits (the peak grip to slip angle area widens considerably)

 

[Fastdruid]

OK, Qashqai was a bad choice for comparison. A ford focus is a similar size car.

Ford Focus 1.5L ecoblue 1454kg

Leaf Acenta 39kWh 1580kg

Leaf e+Tekna 59kWh 1709kg

So the difference in weight is less than the standard MiL

And the weights down low.

A bit unfair to pick a heavy Focus and a light leaf....

If we pick two other versions...

Ford Focus 1.0 EcoBoost 125 Active 1280Kg
Leaf Acenta 1680Kg

That's 5 MiL's, going to have to stick one in the boot (as the DIN Kerb weight includes a driver).

 

[Fastdruid]

But there aren’t any mooses ( Meese?) in this country .

I take it you've never been into your nearest town at falling out time!

 

[bricol]

That's because of the sheer level of performance of a caterham and that the suspension is rock hard compared to a daily.
In terms of actual suspension dynamics a Caterham is pretty ****.

You've been driving the wrong Caterham.

Run on the standard shocks and springs, sitting on their leather seats, its a lovely comfy ride (unless it's really bad road) - floats over most bumps, where my bosses Audi crashes, bangs and vibrates, the other halfs Fiesta jerks and jiggles.

Surprises most who sit in the passenger seat just how comfy it is. An ex had serous coccyx problems, that eventually required an operation - no issues with being in it. Does change in the wet as it's simply not got enough weight to cut down through the water.

One set up for track use might very well be terrible on the road - but in 21 yrs, mines never been on a track - jacked that sort of thing in when I sold my Westfield - which did start off with a horrible road ride due to too stiff springs.

 

[fizzy]

While I'm 100% behind you on the lower weight is better it doesn't exactly work like that with tyres (or anything friction related). Wider rubber is to allow acceptable wear rates on stickier rubber (and it's the stickier rubber that gives more grip rather than the tyre widths).

And there was me thinking the wider the tyre the more rubber hence the more friction there was..................
It is pretty obvious that a 255 tyre will have more grip than a 225 tyre of the same compound?

 

[Danez]

Because for the vast majority of people an electric car is a much better driving experience anyway. Quiet, better NVH, no clutch, gears and much less driveline shunt in traffic, along with much faster throttle response, better traction control systems and instant torque.

modern ice's can be properly quiet and most are auto anyway I don't think driving preference should be a factor in what the government invests in either

Cost is the reason. Dino juice is cheap. It's going to be far cheaper to run a vehicle off the electricity you'd need to make synthetic fuel than to run one off that fuel.

Synthetic fuel will be the preserve of the rich to run their supercars off.

Yeah cost is the massive downside. I just think leccy cars are way too impractical for most people and will be for a very long time to come.

I just think synthetic fuels need more investment to drive that cost down

 

[fizzy]

You've been driving the wrong Caterham.

Run on the standard shocks and springs, sitting on their leather seats, its a lovely comfy ride (unless it's really bad road) - floats over most bumps, where my bosses Audi crashes, bangs and vibrates, the other halfs Fiesta jerks and jiggles.

Surprises most who sit in the passenger seat just how comfy it is. An ex had serous coccyx problems, that eventually required an operation - no issues with being in it. Does change in the wet as it's simply not got enough weight to cut down through the water.

One set up for track use might very well be terrible on the road - but in 21 yrs, mines never been on a track - jacked that sort of thing in when I sold my Westfield - which did start off with a horrible road ride due to too stiff springs.

Totally agree!
And the way they change direction - awesome. They don't move they dart

 

[fizzy]

modern ice's can be properly quiet and most are auto anyway I don't think driving preference should be a factor in what the government invests in either




Yeah cost is the massive downside. I just think leccy cars are way too impractical for most people and will be for a very long time to come.

I just think synthetic fuels need more investment to drive that cost down

Most of the noise coming from a car is down to the tyres.

 

[Danez]

Most of the noise coming from a car is down to the tyres.

Also you need some noise otherwise it can be dangerous. iirc some leccy cars have had to add some artificial noise?