Heating oil increase this morning

[GRW]

Having read through the last few pages I have noticed a few things

This thread, like all similar threads, has descended into the usual arguments

The vast majority of people posting have no or very wrong ideas about how energy is generated, distributed, bought and sold in the UK

Also like all the other threads on this matter, I'm unsubscribing because life is too short

I'd think that "how" (though not in the minutae) electrical energy is generated - isn't all that misunderstood. We have power stations and "renewables".

Distributed - well all sources synchronise together onto the common grid (like multiple tributaries feeding into the same reservoir, while the reservoir turn feeds out to all users).

It's the "bought" and "sold" where the confusion comes into it... & to me the confusion aspect is not accidental. There are way too many "Suppliers" with way too many "packages" and tariffs, shpiel and nonsense - massively over-complicating the business of selling energy to the consumer.
The ONLY logical purpose of this - is to artificially create a marketplace and so-called "difference" between the product you get from one supplier or another..... when of course what you get - is EXACTLY the same voltage, frequency and supply.... from them all.

IMO, how and the source of the energy bought by the resellers to sell on - and how much they pay for it - is part of their business (in an unnecessary artificially created marketplace where resellers were never actually needed at all).

"Renewables" (a misnomer in itself in some cases when you look at just how that energy is being produced - and there's nothing "Green" about it) should (& it doesnt) stadium upon its own merits as a supply source l, and SHOULD compete purely on its own merits.
Instead, "Renewables" got a massive "leg-up" to make it profitable in the form of public subsidy to embed it an established part of the energy supply - where private investors wouldn't have been anything like as interested if the systems had had to stand on their own two feet.
Now? I dare say "Renewables" find it far easier to be competitive and profitable - but that is because the UK's Energy Prices have skyrocketed to make them so.

It's like currently we are paying an energy price that reflects the true cost (unsubsidised) of Renewable Energy...... but paying that price for ALL energy, regardless of how it was generated.

(Of course, thise like Kayos who are heavily involved IN the Renewables Energy Industry will doubtless see it differently, and will dismiss such opinions by simply saying "you have no idea what you're talking about").

One thing us for sure - and that is that UK Electricity was far simpler and far better for the Consumer..... before de-regulation and privatisation of the public utility, and the creation of a Marketplace for big business venture capitalists to enter as middle-men and carve out a big piece for themselves for doing nothing but Brokering that we didn't need.

 

[Kayos]

I'd think that "how" (though not in the minutae) electrical energy is generated - isn't all that misunderstood. We have power stations and "renewables".

Distributed - well all sources synchronise together onto the common grid (like multiple tributaries feeding into the same reservoir, while the reservoir turn feeds out to all users).

It's the "bought" and "sold" where the confusion comes into it... & to me the confusion aspect is not accidental. There are way too many "Suppliers" with way too many "packages" and tariffs, shpiel and nonsense - massively over-complicating the business of selling energy to the consumer.
The ONLY logical purpose of this - is to artificially create a marketplace and so-called "difference" between the product you get from one supplier or another..... when of course what you get - is EXACTLY the same voltage, frequency and supply.... from them all.

IMO, how and the source of the energy bought by the resellers to sell on - and how much they pay for it - is part of their business (in an unnecessary artificially created marketplace where resellers were never actually needed at all).

"Renewables" (a misnomer in itself in some cases when you look at just how that energy is being produced - and there's nothing "Green" about it) should (& it doesnt) stadium upon its own merits as a supply source l, and SHOULD compete purely on its own merits.
Instead, "Renewables" got a massive "leg-up" to make it profitable in the form of public subsidy to embed it an established part of the energy supply - where private investors wouldn't have been anything like as interested if the systems had had to stand on their own two feet.
Now? I dare say "Renewables" find it far easier to be competitive and profitable - but that is because the UK's Energy Prices have skyrocketed to make them so.

It's like currently we are paying an energy price that reflects the true cost (unsubsidised) of Renewable Energy...... but paying that price for ALL energy, regardless of how it was generated.

(Of course, thise like Kayos who are heavily involved IN the Renewables Energy Industry will doubtless see it differently, and will dismiss such opinions by simply saying "you have no idea what you're talking about").

One thing us for sure - and that is that UK Electricity was far simpler and far better for the Consumer..... before de-regulation and privatisation of the public utility, and the creation of a Marketplace for big business venture capitalists to enter as middle-men and carve out a big piece for themselves for doing nothing but Brokering that we didn't need.

I am involved in renewables these days, but my entire career has been in energy. From the early days of a gas engineer efficiency was front and centre

I always found it amusing working for British Gas that our goal was to reduce gas consumption

I'm not going to counter all of your inaccurate points because life is short and I want to go out on my bike

However, please provide details of this mythical deregulation you and others like to talk about?

From where I'm sitting regulation has only increased, and continues to do so

 

[minimutly]

I'd think that "how" (though not in the minutae) electrical energy is generated - isn't all that misunderstood. We have power stations and "renewables".

Distributed - well all sources synchronise together onto the common grid (like multiple tributaries feeding into the same reservoir, while the reservoir turn feeds out to all users).

It's the "bought" and "sold" where the confusion comes into it... & to me the confusion aspect is not accidental. There are way too many "Suppliers" with way too many "packages" and tariffs, shpiel and nonsense - massively over-complicating the business of selling energy to the consumer.
The ONLY logical purpose of this - is to artificially create a marketplace and so-called "difference" between the product you get from one supplier or another..... when of course what you get - is EXACTLY the same voltage, frequency and supply.... from them all.

IMO, how and the source of the energy bought by the resellers to sell on - and how much they pay for it - is part of their business (in an unnecessary artificially created marketplace where resellers were never actually needed at all).

"Renewables" (a misnomer in itself in some cases when you look at just how that energy is being produced - and there's nothing "Green" about it) should (& it doesnt) stadium upon its own merits as a supply source l, and SHOULD compete purely on its own merits.
Instead, "Renewables" got a massive "leg-up" to make it profitable in the form of public subsidy to embed it an established part of the energy supply - where private investors wouldn't have been anything like as interested if the systems had had to stand on their own two feet.
Now? I dare say "Renewables" find it far easier to be competitive and profitable - but that is because the UK's Energy Prices have skyrocketed to make them so.

It's like currently we are paying an energy price that reflects the true cost (unsubsidised) of Renewable Energy...... but paying that price for ALL energy, regardless of how it was generated.

(Of course, thise like Kayos who are heavily involved IN the Renewables Energy Industry will doubtless see it differently, and will dismiss such opinions by simply saying "you have no idea what you're talking about").

One thing us for sure - and that is that UK Electricity was far simpler and far better for the Consumer..... before de-regulation and privatisation of the public utility, and the creation of a Marketplace for big business venture capitalists to enter as middle-men and carve out a big piece for themselves for doing nothing but Brokering that we didn't need.

One phrase you quote there says it all - IMO. Your shouty caps. Are you American?

 

[GRW]

I am involved in renewables these days, but my entire career has been in energy. From the early days of a gas engineer efficiency was front and centre

I always found it amusing working for British Gas that our goal was to reduce gas consumption

I'm not going to counter all of your inaccurate points because life is short and I want to go out on my bike

However, please provide details of this mythical deregulation you and others like to talk about?

From where I'm sitting regulation has only increased, and continues to do so

Perhaps I worded it poorly - but I meant that we went from where there was one Producer (CEGB) and Consumers had just the one Supplier of Electricity... to the mayhem of the Brokers and bewildering number of packages and contracts we suffer from now.

BTW- I may be "inaccurate" on my efforts to summarise the (ludicrous) "system" of Energy Market we now all suffer with - but I think my general point got across.

Edit: If my summary is "inaccurate" then my confusion is because everything is deliberately designed TO BE (added especially that way for MM to get wind blowing up his skirts ) - confusing. Martin Lewis has made a career out of trying to make sense of the Smoke & Mirrors for millions of consumers baffled (& paying more than they should because of the deliberate over-conplication).
Perhaps you can explain why its necessary for the system to be so "consumer unfriendly" to ML & the rest of us poor fools?

 

[GRW]

One phrase you quote there says it all - IMO. Your shouty caps. Are you American?

Ah - the man who calls me rude if I challenge his edicts.
Seems you are happy to lower yourself to the level you accused me of.
I appreciate the irony (& the double-standard) you appear to have overlooked from your lofty position . Shouldn't you be above this sort of thing - practice what you preach & all that?

(As if you didn't know already but didn't want to miss the chance for a cheap shot) the use of Capitals is simple expediency - it us easier/quicker to emphasise with caps than to faff about switching to bold/italics & back again.

 

[Gareth J]

For those who want to genuinely understand why the UK power prices are priced the way they are and why that's resulted in a very high price right now, this week's more or less is worth listening to;

More or Less - Pakistan flooding, UK power prices and Boris’s broadband claim - BBC Sounds

The scale of the disaster is huge, but is a third of Pakistan really under water?

www.bbc.co.uk

Skip to 7mins in.

Last week's was also informative on the subject too.

 

[Kayos]

Perhaps I worded it poorly - but I meant that we went from where there was one Producer (CEGB) and Consumers had just the one Supplier of Electricity... to the mayhem of the Brokers and bewildering number of packages and contracts we suffer from now.

BTW- I may be "inaccurate" on my efforts to summarise the (ludicrous) "system" of Energy Market we now all suffer with - but I think my general point got across.

Edit: If my summary is "inaccurate" then my confusion is because everything is deliberately designed TO BE (added especially that way for MM to get wind blowing up his skirts ) - confusing. Martin Lewis has made a career out of trying to make sense of the Smoke & Mirrors for millions of consumers baffled (& paying more than they should because of the deliberate over-conplication).
Perhaps you can explain why its necessary for the system to be so "consumer unfriendly" to ML & the rest of us poor fools?

You simply proved my point that you don't understand the way energy is produced or sold

If you want to know why it's bad for consumers you need to look at who is in Westminster

 

[GRW]

You simply proved my point that you don't understand the way energy is produced or sold

If you want to know why it's bad for consumers you need to look at who is in Westminster

I shall just have to wonder just how you believe I don't understand (you made it clear you don't wish to elaborate and provide the benefit of your superior knowledge & comptehension).

As for "look at who is in Westminster" that's overly simplistic (unless you just mean Politicians en masse). The other lot didn't do anything to address the way public utility energy is supplied to the consumer.
Overall though I agree - our own Govt facilitates wealthy Corporations to operate & manipulate Public Utility in a system that is great for them, and awful for the public.

 

[Kayos]

I shall just have to wonder just how you believe I don't understand (you made it clear you don't wish to elaborate and provide the benefit of your superior knowledge & comptehension).

As for "look at who is in Westminster" that's overly simplistic (unless you just mean Politicians en masse). The other lot didn't do anything to address the way public utility energy is supplied to the consumer.
Overall though I agree - our own Govt facilitates wealthy Corporations to operate & manipulate Public Utility in a system that is great for them, and awful for the public.

I do mean politicians in general, current and former

Which part of the generation do you want explaining? Base load? On demand? Short notice? (3 minute market is popular these days), thermal? load shedding? Load balancing? Ppa?

Each one will require many paragraphs so where shall we start? (There are many more aspects too)

Then we can start on distribution

Or you can accept that it really isn't simple, volumes of books have been written on the subject

 

[Tangledfeet]

Received an email this morning from The Oil Club; 89.5ppl - that's gone down by 5ppl each weekend for two weeks... long may it continue!

 

[dobbslc]

Nice one @Tangledfeet !
I thought I had clicked on the "let's argue like xxxx about (insert your agenda) thread"
I think I'll ask the missus to order some more oil soon

 

[Tangledfeet]

I thought I had clicked on the "let's argue like xxxx about (insert your agenda) thread"

No, I don't mass debate on here...!

 

[GRW]

I do mean politicians in general, current and former

Which part of the generation do you want explaining? Base load? On demand? Short notice? (3 minute market is popular these days), thermal? load shedding? Load balancing? Ppa?

Each one will require many paragraphs so where shall we start? (There are many more aspects too)

Then we can start on distribution

Or you can accept that it really isn't simple, volumes of books have been written on the subject

I'm familiar with the terms Kayos.... but you're using terms that relate to the Industrial Power market - and not the Domestic user.
The domestic market has no need for the complexity it has. Domestic homes aren't involved in peak-lopping, base load etc.... so you're adding in features that confuse the issue further, surely?

 

[reb78]

Nice one @Tangledfeet !
I thought I had clicked on the "let's argue like xxxx about (insert your agenda) thread"
I think I'll ask the missus to order some more oil soon

Same. I am just gambling and might hold off another week as they still seem to be dropping slightly and apparently there is an announcement to come about oil prices.

Boilerjuice this morning

'Even though heating oil households are not eligible for the energy price guarantee, it was announced that there would be equivalent financial support provided to heating oil homes this winter in the form of a discretionary fund.



Liz Truss:

“For those using heating oil, living in park homes, or those on heat networks, we will set up a fund so that all UK consumers can benefit from equivalent support.”



Once we have the details on how the heating oil fund will be distributed, we’ll be in touch to keep you fully up to date.'

 

[willie.macleod]

It will be interesting to see what this equivalent support heating oil fund looks like - with gas at 10p/kWh (new cap) and their being approximately 10kWh per litre of domestic heating oil then £1/litre is where you might expect heating oil to end up. If its less than that then I'd fill my tank if I had one.

 

[Morrisman]

They say ignorance is bliss. I've said on there and will say again I wish I'd never found Buildhub and it's predecessor eBuild.

If as we should take it were doing these things to "save the planet", "for future generations" etc, then initial outlay has to be ignored to some extent in the face of benefits reaped. I guarantee most on here will have little clue how energy inefficient the majority of UK homes are. I genuinely get quite depressed over it.

You might say "Oh but I've over a foot of loft insulation!" Great but it can be taken so much further. A big issue is traditional construction methods don't lend themselves to Passivhaus, you'll never get the results. The aim is an airtight, thermal envelope. EnerPHit is a Passivhaus system for retrofits but it's always going to be a compromise.

Without a knockdown / rebuild you can go a long way but it's never going to be as good as you can get.

Most depressing is the government pushing everyone into heat pumps which a) run on a fragile electricity supply and b) that they are being fitted to totally unsuitable properties in many cases. Why? Because many firms don't give a toss whether the heat pump they're fitting is going to save the householder money or be better for the planet. They just want the cash!

I've seen loaded members pay builders to build their Passiv spec place only to find later that shortcuts have been taken. Either the builder is unscrupulous of just doesn't grasp the concepts and is mired in tradition. The best builds are by the anal self build types who fuss they're short of 200mm of airtight tape etc

I wanted here to take a room by room approach and believe me I know what to do. "Luckily" the house lends itself to running a MVHR system as there's a damn great gap between ground floor ceiling joists and upstairs former, floor joists. SWMBO just won't buy into it because "I'll take too long" or "we don't have the money". Well luv it's going to be a bloody expensive winter. This is one time I'm going to hate being proved right!

I think my little two bed bungalow does quite well, lots of insulation in the loft, double glazed, curtains and blinds are kept closed in the cold months. And being a single storey the heat doesn't disappear up the stairs to empty rooms.
However, the floor is concrete, no gap underneath. It's carpeted, but I'm sure the heat gets sucked out through the floor.

 

[Morrisman]

I was at a bike night near Whitchurch last week, and noticed the petrol station was selling e10 at £1.61. I mentioned it to a local biker and he told me a place a couple of miles away sells it for £1.49 a litre!

I'd use the place myself, if it's true, but it's a 70 mile round trip for me.....

 

[Onoff]

It's carpeted, but I'm sure the heat gets sucked out through the floor.

Guaranteed. Know a chap built with 300mm of polystyrene under his 100mm concrete slab with UFH in. Floating slab. He calculated 8% of his heat loss was through the floor still.

 

[Pigeon_Droppings2]

Old cement floors are terrible...be worth putting something down to isolate the cement. I reckon the gains are quite high if you're looking to improve things Vs making perfect.

Did our suspended floors about 10 years ago...it made a massive difference. Many people have asked if the floor is heated!

They sell insulated tile backer board that might work as a quick fix.

 

[reb78]

I was at a bike night near Whitchurch last week, and noticed the petrol station was selling e10 at £1.61. I mentioned it to a local biker and he told me a place a couple of miles away sells it for £1.49 a litre!

I'd use the place myself, if it's true, but it's a 70 mile round trip for me.....

I reckon that e10 prices will jump up and down at the pumps as what they have in their tanks reaches shelf life and they need to flog it off and replace with fresh. Just a theory, but it doesnt keep and demand at current prices must be unpredictable.