Log Fires - the future?

[Jelly_Sheffield]

I would admire people like Greta more if they went and did their thing where it really matters.

It does matter here, we're the ones who are buying the stuff that motivated the production of those emissions.

We're also one of the nations with the money and knowledge to help other nations go that way with us.

Countries like India. China, Russia or sadly even the USA. They put out far more CO2 than anywhere else.

Russia is too much of an inward looking mess to care about existential questions.


The USA is actively obstructive at times, and is a different (for now) kind of self-centred mess.


The Indians will move that way over time, but are fiercely protective of the sovereignty of the Indian economy, so it will take as long as it takes forever them to develop their own renewables sector.


All the signs are that the Chinese are already persuaded...

But they're also still a command economy (when it suits) which can and will time how they act to maximise their ability to project power and feed their economy.

The second there's either:
- enough of a push globally to start taxing imports based on the associated Scope 2 & 3 emission, or
- energy prices from their preferred suppliers of fossil fuels, become more expensive than home grown green energy,
then China will turn green faster than you can say jack robinson.

Which will almost certainly be part of a co-ordinated play to actively put the USA on the economic back-foot using those newfound green credentials.

 

[fizzy]

It does matter here, we're the ones who are buying the stuff that motivated the production of those emissions.

We're also one of the nations with the money and knowledge to help other nations go that way with us.


Russia is too much of an inward looking mess to care about existential questions.


The USA is actively obstructive at times, and is a different (for now) kind of self-centred mess.


The Indians will move that way over time, but are fiercely protective of the sovereignty of the Indian economy, so it will take as long as it takes forever them to develop their own renewables sector.


All the signs are that the Chinese are already persuaded...

But they're also still a command economy (when it suits) which can and will time how they act to maximise their ability to project power and feed their economy.

The second there's either:
- enough of a push globally to start taxing imports based on the associated Scope 2 & 3 emission, or
- energy prices from their preferred suppliers of fossil fuels, become more expensive than home grown green energy,
then China will turn green faster than you can say jack robinson.

Which will almost certainly be part of a co-ordinated play to actively put the USA on the economic back-foot using those newfound green credentials.

Fossil fuels are getting cheaper by and large. Especially oil.

 

[Onoff]

Fossil fuels are getting cheaper by and large. Especially oil.

Will do short term if the Saudis flood the market.

 

[fizzy]

Will do short term if the Saudis flood the market.

The Yanks are producing vast amounts from shale and fracking. Funny how fracking had so much bad publicity here and yet geothermal drilling is all in favour. They both create minor earthquakes.

 

[addjunkie]

Will do short term if the Saudis flood the market.

OPEC no longer has the vast power it once had. Oil prices rise and fall on supply and demand, these move accelerate when fear of running out creeps in. But as the US a big user has its own supplies from with in or other non OPEC countries the fear is far less. The rise and fall is also used by the Saudis to control their neighbours. If prices are up, waring neighbours have cash to fund trouble, prices low they need the revenue to support their economies.

 

[gaz1]

Yet China has gone to town on renewable in a big way, India is heading that way too.

When peopoe talk about the UKs carbon footprint compared to the rest of the world, they conveniently ignore the footprint we create by our overseas activities and all the carp we buy from these countries, a lot of the carp is impending landfill.

Maybe so but they are by far the biggest producers of CO2.
They are also building loads of nuclear

we cant blame the chinese for producing what we use to produce all the uk has done is ship it to another country with no policy on being green

all to save profits for themselves

cheap labour and no health and safety compared to here in the uk

and it will shift again to another poor country in the end it will go full circle when our health and safety has gone to the walls and people want jobs and will take any job for peanuts

 

[GRW]

The simple core problem is that most folk are good at paying lip service to things, but don't & won't change. No matter the intent, unless someone finds a way to control human nature, nothing will ever change much. Some care, most don't. The latter simply like to appear as if they care.

I think rather they want everyone else to change, while they continue as they wish.
(The wealthy & privileged even more so. I am of the opinion that all the "Climate Change" Agenda is to secure resources in perpetuity for the top 5 percentile (or so) of the globally wealthy in perpetuity, by making damned sure we the grest unwashed are denied access in perpetuity).

 

[GRW]

She's following the science. 97% of climate scientists agree that global warming is man made and not to be taken lightly. 3% are either funded by fossil fuel industry or loonies.

However, most follow the 3% as it suits their opinions. A bit like a drowning man clutching at anything that comes to hand.

The trouble is though, that the "science" you follow is really "follow the money behind that "science" & look at the results that money wishes to "prove".... and that money is far from just the "Oil Barons" (who in any case are so wealthy & have diversified into many other lucrative fields).
Truth - is a rare thing indeed, & on the endangered list.

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

Fossil fuels are getting cheaper by and large. Especially oil.

For now...

But the second it stops being to their advantage to use them, the Chinese will shift far far quicker to switch than everyone else.

OPEC no longer has the vast power it once had. Oil prices rise and fall on supply and demand, these move accelerate when fear of running out creeps in. But as the US a big user has its own supplies from with in or other non OPEC countries the fear is far less. The rise and fall is also used by the Saudis to control their neighbours. If prices are up, waring neighbours have cash to fund trouble, prices low they need the revenue to support their economies.

Exactly, energy security is a major geopolitical tool, and very susceptible to changes in supply.

Both factors only serve to make it more volatile and less predictable.

Further escalation in the middle east could absolutely skyrocket prices everywhere...

Even the USA isn't totally exempt from that as they consume more of certain classes of distillates than their indigenous supply supports, resulting in them being both a major importer and exporter of Oil to balance their actual needs.

 

[brewdexta]

The trouble is though, that the "science" you follow is really "follow the money behind that "science" & look at the results that money wishes to "prove".... and that money is far from just the "Oil Barons" (who in any case are so wealthy & have diversified into many other lucrative fields).
Truth - is a rare thing indeed, & on the endangered list.

I would disagree with that quite strongly given the sources are peer reviewed by many people from different organisations, universities etc. in different countries.

Making people disbelieve science is one of the few ways that climate deniers (for whatever motivation) can defend their position and manipulate other people's opinion.

 

[GRW]

I would disagree with that quite strongly given the sources are peer reviewed by many people from different organisations, universities etc. in different countries.

Making people disbelieve science is one of the few ways that climate deniers (for whatever motivation) can defend their position and manipulate other people's opinion.

I take it you're aware just how much big Pharma & other such large Corps fund research and such from UK and of course many, many other countries Universities?
(I was surprised how much other services like Data Handling and Telecoms, electronics etc etc Universities provide - for Govt & Public Sector as well as Business.
Universities are neck-deep in the very things they "peer-review".

 

[Farside]

I'll wait a few years when we've completely screwed the planet to hear you all say Greta was right.

I think she's great for putting her convictions out there, even after the fossil fuel industry tried to destroy her reputation.

I love watching the gammons explode.

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

I think rather they want everyone else to change, while they continue as they wish.
(The wealthy & privileged even more so. I am of the opinion that all the "Climate Change" Agenda is to secure resources in perpetuity for the top 5 percentile (or so) of the globally wealthy in perpetuity, by making damned sure we the grest unwashed are denied access in perpetuity).

The trouble is though, that the "science" you follow is really "follow the money behind that "science" & look at the results that money wishes to "prove".... and that money is far from just the "Oil Barons" (who in any case are so wealthy & have diversified into many other lucrative fields).
Truth - is a rare thing indeed, & on the endangered list.

What you're insinuating about "the science" just doesn't pass the very basic test of Occam's Razor...

What's really more likely:

- Shadowy forces have managed to systematically convince hundreds of thousands of scientists to lie about something and for the most visible among them increasingly be exposed to significant personal risk, all for zero compensation, in order to act largely against the interests of the established economic structures?

Or

- Responding to the development of a scientific consensus, wealthy people are using that wealth to position themselves to profit from likely changes, and insulate themselves from any potential hardship?



You're not wrong that people in positions of wealth and power are trying to push as much of the needed changes downhill onto the less fortunate (and wealthy nations are doing their best to do the same to less developed countries)...

But that's not a sign of some massive conspiracy, it's just business as usual for humanity.

Apart from a brief period in the 20th century when the "Postwar consensus" prevailed and hugely lifted living standards for working men and women in "the west", the default is for those with power and wealth to consolidate it, at the expense of everyone else.

Doesn't matter what system you look at in history, or what the purported politics are of a country... they all seem to result in those in power consistently responding to changes as an opportunity to concentrate wealth and consolidating their position.

We seem to be doing a very bad job of using our democracies to hold the indirect power of the very wealthy to account, when the same kind of behaviour we saw with the early 20th century "Robber Barons" appears to be re-emerging with a vengeance.

 

[Erie Fred]

I would disagree with that quite strongly given the sources are peer reviewed by many people from different organisations, universities etc. in different countries.

Making people disbelieve science is one of the few ways that climate deniers (for whatever motivation) can defend their position and manipulate other people's opinion.

...all those people are on the climate change payroll.

 

[gaz1]

why cant you guys keep it on its subject of log fires

its the longest running thread post on the subject and for some reason you guys have taken it off its subject reference

 

[AVI_8]

Well to bring it back onto the subject of log fires, I’ve had mine for 10 years now, and as this is an old thread I’m not sure if I’ve mentioned this before, probably have.
I found that just using logs was taking up a large proportion of my time by collecting it, splitting it, storing it for seasoning, I still do that but I’ve been using anthracite and peat for a few years now, logs also obviously but the anthracite and peat have reduced my log usage very considerably, by about 2/3rds.
For those of you who have a log burner as long as it’s a multi fuel stove I highly recommend this, if you have an unlimited supply of wood and it’s free then this might not appeal, but if you’re paying for seasoned or kiln dried wood it’ll definitely save you money. I can throw in a layer of peat, and another layer of anthracite on top then 1 log, won’t have to open the door again for at least 2 hours, compared to using just logs it’s just easier and cheaper.
Though the peat smokes like chain smoker so no good in a smoke free zone.

 

[GRW]

Well to bring it back onto the subject of log fires, I’ve had mine for 10 years now, and as this is an old thread I’m not sure if I’ve mentioned this before, probably have.
I found that just using logs was taking up a large proportion of my time by collecting it, splitting it, storing it for seasoning, I still do that but I’ve been using anthracite and peat for a few years now, logs also obviously but the anthracite and peat have reduced my log usage very considerably, by about 2/3rds.
For those of you who have a log burner as long as it’s a multi fuel stove I highly recommend this, if you have an unlimited supply of wood and it’s free then this might not appeal, but if you’re paying for seasoned or kiln dried wood it’ll definitely save you money. I can throw in a layer of peat, and another layer of anthracite on top then 1 log, won’t have to open the door again for at least 2 hours, compared to using just logs it’s just easier and cheaper.
Though the peat smokes like chain smoker so no good in a smoke free zone.

I've never even seen Peat apart from on the telly (old Scottish chaps cutting peat on a soggy moor etc). Maybe there is some somewhere in Wales, but not that I've come across.
Anthracite - the use of coal seems to have fallen dramatically over the last 30-years here in rural SW Wales. Far fewer vendors & sellers, and it seems to be sold in general country stores & some garage forecourts packaged in tidy 25kg plastic bags.... and at a tidy price!
The price of coal (& of course the restrictions on where it can be burnt) and the move to oil & gas, (& now new boilers on those fuels are being outlawed in favour of air-source, solar etc) that it is inevitable that Anthracite will get more & more expensive (again something our Govts will be happy to support, as it will "discourage" it's use - I.e. those most likely to use it won't be able to afford to use it).
You can see the same for oil.... I wonder how long before the Climate Change excuse sees Kero's status changed to have taxation levies at "Road fuel" 70+% levels to asphyxiate its use & force people to stop using that as well? Looking at the way we are being herded with ever sharper pointy sticks along the "Great Nut Zero Excuse" path - you do not need to be Nostradamus to forsee what's coming - coal, timber & any heat/energy source or process other than Heat Pump / Solar / Electric - will be tendered extinct (or outlawed making its use an Offence) through legislation & enforcement.... without a drastic change of govt priorities.

 

[Smallfry]

Well to bring it back onto the subject of log fires, I’ve had mine for 10 years now, and as this is an old thread I’m not sure if I’ve mentioned this before, probably have.
I found that just using logs was taking up a large proportion of my time by collecting it, splitting it, storing it for seasoning, I still do that but I’ve been using anthracite and peat for a few years now, logs also obviously but the anthracite and peat have reduced my log usage very considerably, by about 2/3rds.
For those of you who have a log burner as long as it’s a multi fuel stove I highly recommend this, if you have an unlimited supply of wood and it’s free then this might not appeal, but if you’re paying for seasoned or kiln dried wood it’ll definitely save you money. I can throw in a layer of peat, and another layer of anthracite on top then 1 log, won’t have to open the door again for at least 2 hours, compared to using just logs it’s just easier and cheaper.
Though the peat smokes like chain smoker so no good in a smoke free zone.

We would have to go to garden centre to get our peat. In nice big plastic bags. Or has this been outlawed already ? I am not into gardening but ISTR there was some talk of this some years ago.

 

[AVI_8]

We would have to go to garden centre to get our peat. In nice big plastic bags. Or has this been outlawed already ? I am not into gardening but ISTR there was some talk of this some years ago.

The peat I buy comes from north of Scotland, I contacted the company who sell it in order to get a pallet delivered directly but they said that they don’t do that.
So I buy it from a company in Glossop who put it on a pallet and send it all the way back up to Scotland again …….. It’s very well travelled peat.
But yes you can get it in garden centres by the bag but it’s an expensive way of doing things, same as the anthracite, I get it by the pallet load also, both of these from this company, I’ve done a bit of research over the years and they seem to be the cheapest.

WonderFuel Coal / Smokeless Fuel

Premium Quality WonderFuel Smokeless and House Coal!

www.thewonderfuelcompany.co.uk

 

[brewdexta]

I take it you're aware just how much big Pharma & other such large Corps fund research and such from UK and of course many, many other countries Universities?
(I was surprised how much other services like Data Handling and Telecoms, electronics etc etc Universities provide - for Govt & Public Sector as well as Business.
Universities are neck-deep in the very things they "peer-review".

So you think there's a global conspiracy including all the researchers that do this as a vocation? I run a research lab, and I work with organisations like the National Physical Laboratory and know people who work in various research disciplines such as physics and medicine and your opinion on research peer reviews is completely wrong, but shows how the discreditation of science is working.

Here's a bit of info on how much money the fossil fuel industry puts into disinformation. https://blog.ucsusa.org/elliott-neg...t-his-climate-change-disinformation-campaign/

Back to logs!

A friend of mine Installs stoves, so has a list of potential log customers. I have a bit of land, unfortunately not much of it is flat, and some machinery for moving logs about. We were toying with the idea of getting a lorry load of logs in the round and hiring a man and machine to cut and split them. Maybe do this a couple of times a year. The Forest of Bowland is nearby so we can probably get the wood, but delivery into the hills and space for seasoning are the current problems. Still thinking on it, not now but when I retire.