Log Fires - the future?

[fizzy]

So you think there's a global conspiracy including all the researchers that do this as a vocation? I run a research lab, and I work with organisations like the National Physical Laboratory and know people who work in various research disciplines such as physics and medicine and your opinion on research peer reviews is completely wrong, but shows how the discreditation of science is working.

Here's a bit of info on how much money the fossil fuel industry puts into disinformation. https://blog.ucsusa.org/elliott-neg...t-his-climate-change-disinformation-campaign/

Back to logs!

A friend of mine Installs stoves, so has a list of potential log customers. I have a bit of land, unfortunately not much of it is flat, and some machinery for moving logs about. We were toying with the idea of getting a lorry load of logs in the round and hiring a man and machine to cut and split them. Maybe do this a couple of times a year. The Forest of Bowland is nearby so we can probably get the wood, but delivery into the hills and space for seasoning are the current problems. Still thinking on it, not now but when I retire.

When I lived in an old farmhouse in the Brecon Beacons I thought it would be a great idea to buy 2 full loads of logs. Mixed soft and hardwood. I had space in my warehouse then. This was in about 2014. I paid £800 a load. I was going to hire a firewood processor - but it turned out some of the logs were about 36" diameter
I ended up cutting the whole lot by myself with a chainsaw - still have a large lump on my elbow.
I had some help splitting them - all done with my Clarke 4 ton logbuster.
After all that work they lasted me 6 months
The farmhouse was above the treeline. Walls a genuine 3 to 4' thick! Rayburn one end and a massive woodburner the other. Freezing cold winters were fine - no wind. Milder winters it was much harder to keep warm. It's the wind that pulls the heat out. Still miss the place though!

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

It's the wind that pulls the heat out.

Under-rated comment.

You can almost tell the windspeed from the temperature in our back office, it's very exposed to the wind, and on a day with strong winds the temperature will drop about 2-2.5°C unless you adjust the radiator up to max and run the heating constantly.



Having grown up in a house that was solid fuel only until about 2001 (made affordable by my Great Grandad having the free coal allowance from his pit pension delivered to us, as it was little use to him in a nursing home), I am always in two minds about solid fuels

On the one hand when you have a fire going in the depths of winter it heats the house like nothing else. I can see why people who have some other form of heating romanticise them.

On the other hand being obligated to get up at the crack of sparrows to get the fire under the boiler going again, clearing all the ash, and dragging a new bucket of coal in is not fun.

And if you don't quite bank the fire right at night, and it goes out on a cold day then you're about to have a thoroughly miserable morning.

Also from the year our immersion heater packed up and we couldn't afford to fix it, having to choose between a cold bath, or running the fire on a warm or even hot day... Bugger that!



Ironically enough the house we're trying to buy at the moment has solid-fuel only heating.

We've already determined that we'll keep a little bit of equity back from the sale of our current house to pay for fitting a Ground-Source heat pump, but split the system and keep the solid-fuel back boiler linked to a couple of radiators in the coldest parts of the house.

Best of both worlds!

 

[8ob]

I am hoping she gets pregnant with quads and has her hands full, that's her out the equation.

They would be a carbon copy of her

Bob

 

[fizzy]

Under-rated comment.

You can almost tell the windspeed from the temperature in our back office, it's very exposed to the wind, and on a day with strong winds the temperature will drop about 2-2.5°C unless you adjust the radiator up to max and run the heating constantly.



Having grown up in a house that was solid fuel only until about 2001 (made affordable by my Great Grandad having the free coal allowance from his pit pension delivered to us, as it was little use to him in a nursing home), I am always in two minds about solid fuels

On the one hand when you have a fire going in the depths of winter it heats the house like nothing else. I can see why people who have some other form of heating romanticise them.

On the other hand being obligated to get up at the crack of sparrows to get the fire under the boiler going again, clearing all the ash, and dragging a new bucket of coal in is not fun.

And if you don't quite bank the fire right at night, and it goes out on a cold day then you're about to have a thoroughly miserable morning.

Also from the year our immersion heater packed up and we couldn't afford to fix it, having to choose between a cold bath, or running the fire on a warm or even hot day... Bugger that!



Ironically enough the house we're trying to buy at the moment has solid-fuel only heating.

We've already determined that we'll keep a little bit of equity back from the sale of our current house to pay for fitting a Ground-Source heat pump, but split the system and keep the solid-fuel back boiler linked to a couple of radiators in the coldest parts of the house.

Best of both worlds!

When we moved out the chap who bought the place was a doctor and loaded. He had underfloor heating installed. Ground source heat pump the works. Spent about 60k on it. Loads of loft insulation and underfloor. The Beast from the East struck. Due to all the insulation and lack of heat the water tanks froze in the attics. When it thawed it brought the ceilings down. They were a month in a B+B.
Their electricity bills were hitting £800 a month in winter. My old neighbour there tells me they are now back to burning wood and coal

 

[GRW]

So you think there's a global conspiracy including all the researchers that do this as a vocation? I run a research lab, and I work with organisations like the National Physical Laboratory and know people who work in various research disciplines such as physics and medicine and your opinion on research peer reviews is completely wrong, but shows how the discreditation of science is working.

Here's a bit of info on how much money the fossil fuel industry puts into disinformation. https://blog.ucsusa.org/elliott-neg...t-his-climate-change-disinformation-campaign/

Back to logs!

A friend of mine Installs stoves, so has a list of potential log customers. I have a bit of land, unfortunately not much of it is flat, and some machinery for moving logs about. We were toying with the idea of getting a lorry load of logs in the round and hiring a man and machine to cut and split them. Maybe do this a couple of times a year. The Forest of Bowland is nearby so we can probably get the wood, but delivery into the hills and space for seasoning are the current problems. Still thinking on it, not now but when I retire.

With a big sawing & splitting machine with 100hp+ driving it, plus a loading feed table & another machine to load suitable raw timber (& a lot of curly branches etc are a PITA to put through one, and are better cut into smaller lengths by chainsaw & put through a smaller processor) with one operator, in ideal circumstances might crate up around 10 cube in an 8-hr day (inc loading, processing, tidying crates, & shifting and moving filled crates).
On tol of that you've got the raw timber handling to get there.
It's not cheap to produce & deliver.

 

[addjunkie]

With a big sawing & splitting machine with 100hp+ driving it, plus a loading feed table & another machine to load suitable raw timber (& a lot of curly branches etc are a PITA to put through one, and are better cut into smaller lengths by chainsaw & put through a smaller processor) with one operator, in ideal circumstances might crate up around 10 cube in an 8-hr day (inc loading, processing, tidying crates, & shifting and moving filled crates).
On tol of that you've got the raw timber handling to get there.
It's not cheap to produce & deliver.

I know 4 people who buy wood to process into logs to sell locally. Unless you have massive covered storage for seasoning, kiln drying to comply with legislation is the only way. One buys timber by the wagon load, leaves on the hill for a couple of years, then cuts and splits as required using a chain saw and petrol portable splitter. Looks like hard work to me earn a hundred quid or so for his weekends beer. The other 3 run proper businesses, with PTO driven processors, two air seasoning in big farm sheds, the other having his own kiln. None are getting rich out of it and work hard for their money. Two of them have been known to buy lorry loads of hard wood straight of ships, as its cheaper than locally sourced.

Not sure what the cost of a full loggin wagon is these days, but I shall enquire at the Sunday club.

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

With a big sawing & splitting machine with 100hp+ driving it, plus a loading feed table & another machine to load suitable raw timber (& a lot of curly branches etc are a PITA to put through one, and are better cut into smaller lengths by chainsaw & put through a smaller processor) with one operator, in ideal circumstances might crate up around 10 cube in an 8-hr day (inc loading, processing, tidying crates, & shifting and moving filled crates).
On tol of that you've got the raw timber handling to get there.
It's not cheap to produce & deliver.

It's kind of jarring to hear that good production would be 10m³ per day.

Talking with Ex-Metso colleagues who used to work on the other side of primary timber production, they were discussing how old an inefficient the Latvian sawmill Stora-Enso just closed was... with production of 17m³ per minute.

 

[GRW]

I know 4 people who buy wood to process into logs to sell locally. Unless you have massive covered storage for seasoning, kiln drying to comply with legislation is the only way. One buys timber by the wagon load, leaves on the hill for a couple of years, then cuts and splits as required using a chain saw and petrol portable splitter. Looks like hard work to me earn a hundred quid or so for his weekends beer. The other 3 run proper businesses, with PTO driven processors, two air seasoning in big farm sheds, the other having his own kiln. None are getting rich out of it and work hard for their money. Two of them have been known to buy lorry loads of hard wood straight of ships, as its cheaper than locally sourced.

Not sure what the cost of a full loggin wagon is these days, but I shall enquire at the Sunday club.

Yep, sounds about right. I was never tasked or had the time to do a proper costing of cost per m3 to produce... but from what I saw and "back of a fag packet" guesstimate.... I'd say you're bang on - no-ones going to do well off the back of doing Firewood (properly kiln-dried & Woodsure etc approved or not). Most buyers aren't buying to run Biomass etc so aren't fussed about the timber being accredited- so it's not like there is a premium price they can charge for the Cube.
It's a lot of hard work, using expensive to buy/ maintain equipment, and you need a LOT of yard space and drying space, handling kit - and delivery vehicles etc.

 

[Onoff]

Drop the question mark and the thread title could be quite prophetic...

 

[brewdexta]

I use about 12 tonnes of pellets (for the boilers) and about 7 IBC cages of logs (for stoves)heating house and workshop per year. The main pellet boiler also takes logs so was hoping to replace about 10 tonnes of pellets with logs once I retire and stop travelling around so much. 2 tonnes of pellets would heat the workshop (that's a pellet only boiler) and provide heat to the house when we are not about to load it with logs.

So my main reason is self supply whereas my neighbours reason would be to sell.

I have found a place that sells IBC cages of seasoned logs at reasonable prices now so reconsidering as I really don't want to spend my life messing with wood.

The good news is that the main boiler is a downdraft gasification type boiler that is happy burning any wood below a certain moisture level. So I can reserve the decent hardwood for stoves and use anything else for the boiler.

 

[fizzy]

I use about 12 tonnes of pellets (for the boilers) and about 7 IBC cages of logs (for stoves)heating house and workshop per year. The main pellet boiler also takes logs so was hoping to replace about 10 tonnes of pellets with logs once I retire and stop travelling around so much. 2 tonnes of pellets would heat the workshop (that's a pellet only boiler) and provide heat to the house when we are not about to load it with logs.

So my main reason is self supply whereas my neighbours reason would be to sell.

I have found a place that sells IBC cages of seasoned logs at reasonable prices now so reconsidering as I really don't want to spend my life messing with wood.

The good news is that the main boiler is a downdraft gasification type boiler that is happy burning any wood below a certain moisture level. So I can reserve the decent hardwood for stoves and use anything else for the boiler.

Wouldn't oil be cheaper or about the same for you when you factor in all the hassle?
If I had to buy wood I wouldn't bother any more much as I love it.

 

[brewdexta]

I was on LPG before this, it came with the house. I got a grant to install the main wood boiler still a year to go on that. Grant was cut by 65% by the time we built the boiler room so it didn't come to much. Besides, it's not just about the money.

We get a couple of m3 from our own woods per year. Not much but helps, I can usually find a couple more from neighbours.

As I get older, I may change my mind, or downsize to something smaller and easier to heat.

 

[fizzy]

I was on LPG before this, it came with the house. I got a grant to install the main wood boiler still a year to go on that. Grant was cut by 65% by the time we built the boiler room so it didn't come to much. Besides, it's not just about the money.

We get a couple of m3 from our own woods per year. Not much but helps, I can usually find a couple more from neighbours.

As I get older, I may change my mind, or downsize to something smaller and easier to heat.

LPG used to be extremely expensive - not sure about now. In theory it should be very cheap but never really worked out that way.

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

Wouldn't oil be cheaper or about the same for you when you factor in all the hassle?
If I had to buy wood I wouldn't bother any more much as I love it.

Currently all the off-grid heating prices are much of a muchness.

Wood works out about £0.07407 per kWh.
Heating oil is roughly £0.07405 per kWh.
LPG is roughly £0.079 per kWh.

By contrast Natural Gas is £0.0634 per kWh.

The big advantage I can see to wood with a reliable local supplier you can insulate yourself from short term price volatility.

Whereas Oil or LPG could literally double overnight like it did two years ago, and there's less ability to hedge against it.

 

[fizzy]

Currently all the off-grid heating prices are much of a muchness.

Wood works out about £0.07407 per kWh.
Heating oil is roughly £0.07405 per kWh.
LPG is roughly £0.079 per kWh.

By contrast Natural Gas is £0.0634 per kWh.

The big advantage I can see to wood with a reliable local supplier you can insulate yourself from short term price volatility.

Whereas Oil or LPG could literally double overnight like it did two years ago, and there's less ability to hedge against it.

Kerosene is currently working out at £0.054 per kw/h - cheaper than mains gas - this is based on £0.56p per litre which isn't really cheap. Expected to come down soon due to the Saudis.

 

[addjunkie]

Currently all the off-grid heating prices are much of a muchness.

Wood works out about £0.07407 per kWh.
Heating oil is roughly £0.07405 per kWh.
LPG is roughly £0.079 per kWh.

By contrast Natural Gas is £0.0634 per kWh.

The big advantage I can see to wood with a reliable local supplier you can insulate yourself from short term price volatility.

Whereas Oil or LPG could literally double overnight like it did two years ago, and there's less ability to hedge against it.

Every option has pros and cons, that was the initial idea of having oil and a back boiler system both supplying my heat store. I paid 60p per litre on Monday for 1500 ltrs.

Living on the edge of the largest commercial forest in England I did investigate getting a wagon load of softwood to burn. Had a couple of options at the time, wagon load from a big forestry company, I drink with their boss, or a neighbour was happy to take his logging wagon and collect 25ton for me about 40 miles away. Price wise little difference. Though the private deal had been cut 18 months before and stacked. But after spending a bit of time with our local logs on the hill man I thought do I really need the hassel. Time, chainsaw fuel, space to stack, splitting….. at a rough guess Id save 40 or 50 quid a cube, and loads of time to do something else. Im basically lazy and dont need the 40 or 50 quid Id save. I rarely even split kindling now, buy it by the pallet, obviously for my holiday cottages.

Logs are the best fuel when you get them free, from trees been felled, but still hard work. My brother has had 7 ash trees taken down, hell be cutting and splitting till he croaks, now hes retired itll give him something to do.

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

Kerosene is currently working out at £0.054 per kw/h - cheaper than mains gas - this is based on £0.56p per litre which isn't really cheap. Expected to come down soon due to the Saudis.

You have more up to date price information than I do then!

But the point still stands that it can triple in price overnight (and previously has), which is probably the biggest downside to choosing it.

 

[Erie Fred]

You have more up to date price information than I do then!

But the point still stands that it can triple in price overnight (and previously has), which is probably the biggest downside to choosing it.

Some people I know buy an extra tank for propane to make from summer to summer
where the rates are the lowest.

 

[Onoff]

Log fires...the future:

NASA Rocket Engine Fireplace

Just what you need for the holidays... the coziness of a crackling and roaring rocket engine!

plus.nasa.gov

 

[Onoff]

I want to know how much biogas I can make from my half acre of greenery and free cow manure.