Making brake pipes & flaring tool/bender.

[rtbcomp]

I thought when you said "nut" you meant the nut, that's a nipple you've got there (sorry to be pedantic) which is why I didn't quite understand what you meant.

That doesn't look right, the shoulder of the flare should sit against the nipple.

Have you got too much pipe sticking through the die when you do the flare, causing the pipe to bunch, and have you got a metric nut and a metric nipple (or imperial, as the case may be)?

I like the idea of using the wood bit, must try that.

 

[mart]

I didn`t realise they were called nipples-my mistake there then.

Yes they are metric- i have checked the threads on the original nipples on the car and all are ok-they all screw into each other.

I note your point about the possibility of having too much pipe protruding through the die. When i insert the pipe, i place a flat item over the end where the pipe comes through to ensure it is flush and is not protruding. I do however feel that i have made the flares a little better by very slightly pushing the pipe back in about 1 mm.

The 2nd pic (on page 4) is not very sharp either). It shows the flange after compressing but is maybe not sharp enough to see that the shoulder is on the nipple. I will take a pic with a friend`s camera tomorrow.

For the record i first use the OP1 (4.75) then the OP2 (4.75) That is the way i understand the procedure to be? I have the kit containing the full monty-right up to 12mm &1/2 inch. Din & SAE punches.

 

[peterd51]

Hi,

it's been a while since I last made a brake pipe but that picture doesn't look quite right...

that's a double flare with the pointy bit pushed back inside (ie, a female connection).

But shouldn't that be on the nut and a single flare (pointy bit out, ie, male) be on the nipple?

Also bear in mind I tend to work on Fords...

and I'm getting old so my memory might be playing up...

and I guess it wouldn't make any difference as long as you have one of each type on each connection.

Regards
Peter

 

[mart]

Hi,

it's been a while since I last made a brake pipe but that picture doesn't look quite right...

that's a double flare with the pointy bit pushed back inside (ie, a female connection).

But shouldn't that be on the nut and a single flare (pointy bit out, ie, male) be on the nipple?
Also bear in mind I tend to work on Fords...

and I'm getting old so my memory might be playing up...

and I guess it wouldn't make any difference as long as you have one of each type on each connection.

Regards
Peter

Wondered where you had got to Pete. No it is not quite right but i am trying to establish why.

What do you mean by "pointy bit"?

The nut (or nipple) in the pic is a male, and basically this is the same set-up as the original on the car(nissan). This screws in to a rear brake cylinder, and into a brake terminal/junction under the bonnet (same flare on both ends of the original pipe.)

I have highlighed paragraph in bold that i do not understand.

Basically (on my flare) i cannot understand why the flare is sort of funnel shape, i.e with a tapered neck below the shoulder. This is the issue that is preventing it seating correctly in the nut/nipple.

 

[rtbcomp]

Hi,

.....
But shouldn't that be on the nut and a single flare (pointy bit out, ie, male) be on the nipple?

.........Peter

That's a point.

The type of flare depends what the nut or nipple screws on to.

The double flare (female/concave) usually joins a flexible to a solid pipe. The flexible has a male thread & cone so requires a double flare and a pipe nut

The single flare (male/pointy bit out) usually joins a solid pipe to a cylinder. Cylinders have female threads and usually a female cone. So you'd use a single flare with a nipple.

Some slave cylinders (eg Series Landrover) have a male cone in the bottom of the threaded hole, so you'd use a double flare with a nipple.

What car is this on Mart? I've only worked on cars built upto the 1980's and they all use 3/16 pipe.

Finally are you absolutely certain they're metric? There is one size where imperial & metric screw into each other, I forget which, but the UNF and Metric fine threads are very close, but shouldn't be used together on safety grounds.

Finally finally, you should be able to rotate the nipple on the pipe, if you can't something is wrong. Pretty obvious really else you wouldn't be able to do/undo the nipple without twisting the pipe.

 

[rtbcomp]

.....Basically (on my flare) i cannot understand why the flare is sort of funnel shape, i.e with a tapered neck below the shoulder. This is the issue that is preventing it seating correctly in the nut/nipple.

I'm wondering whether you have metric pipe and imperial dies, or vice versa.

 

[Wozzaaah]

A lot of rear cylinders have male conical seats so need a double flare (female) to seat. I did two on our fourtrak a few weeks ago and that's how they are on that.
The pipe should remain parallel right up to the start of the underside of the flare or the nut will not seat against it as shown in your pic, the only funnel shape should be the flare itself. If you've followed the procedure correctly I can't see where it's going wrong though.
Oh and I can be pedantic too, bleed nipples, brake pipe nuts .

 

[rtbcomp]

....
Oh and I can be pedantic too, bleed nipples, brake pipe nuts .

I can be VERY pedantic.

Bleed screws, pipe nipples (male thread), pipe nuts (female thread).

 

[mart]

I`m having a Eureka moment

ok i think I’ve sorted it.

My errors/inexperience-call it whatever.

There are ten dies in total in the kit. These are about 50/50 metric & imperial. There are numerous punches in a turret arrangement.

I have been using 3/16 pipe and selecting the 3/16 die to correspond to the pipe size. I have then been flaring the pipe- first with the (OP1)4.75mm punch followed by the (OP2) 4.75mm punch to complete the process of a metric double flare.

So what was my error? My error was that I should have been using the 4.75mm die. This is the ONLY die in the set that is not concave. It is what I would describe as simply flat at the bottom.

So, thank you to all who contributed to this thread. I think RTB was getting ready to come over to Moorgate to do it for me. (I’ll take the chocolate digestives back to Tesco’s now)

I was going to post a pic of the finished job, but a friend has just put the brand new Wilko batteries in his camera and there is more life in a tramp’s vest.

 

[rtbcomp]

That's good. Moorgate eh? that's posh.

 

[peterd51]

Hi,

Wondered where you had got to Pete.

looking for another job, re-reading text books, playing with virtual networks to get ready for silly questions from interviewers. Plus it's been too cold outside to do much for the last six weeks or so!

What do you mean by "pointy bit"?

it gets tricky to explain as there are so many different terms but basically it's a single flare that has a point rather than a double flare that has a concave/hollow.

As long as it's right for your vehicle, the same as what came off, then don't worry about it.

Regards
Peter

 

[mart]

That's good. Moorgate eh? that's posh.

Only the area-not me. 16 year old cars and rich tea buscuits (unles i`m expecting visitors)

 

[beestieboy]

beestieboy

beestieboy1@yahoo.co.uk

Hi,

please can you tell me how i can get my hands on one of these moprod brake flaring tools , i lost mine and i cannot see them on sale any more .

that's what I use I reckon. I just go to the local car-parts specialist, ask for brake-pipe and he asks if I want cheap or expensive. I know the harder stuff is twice the price so I've been using the copper for years and never had a problem...

but then I think I've mentioned before that by the time I get a car it's into it's last 3 - 5 years of existence.

I've just popped out to the workshop and photographed mine...

View attachment 2431

It's about 30 years old but still works OK. On the shaper bit on the left you can see one end has a pin sticking up, that's used for the 'second' stage to turn a male end into a female end.

Also on the lower section of the shaper, there's the flange just abve the thread for setting the initial depth.

Always reminds me of the original starship Enterprise!

Regards
Peter

 

[beestieboy]

beestieboy

do you know how i can get my hands on one of these moprod brake flaring tools please , I can not seem to find them on sale ?.

 

[langy]

Absolutely correct, NEVER use copper, You wouldn't believe the amount of copper made systems i've come across that have failed


If you can run to the extra the best flaring tool out there is the Sykes Pickavant flarer, There are also some great copies of this tool on Ebay that are good.

Always DOUBLE flare brakes, never single flare.

It always amazes me how many people will spend thousands on something that shows and then scrimp on something as important as brakes.

For brake pipes I think you really want a copper/nickel mix. If you use just plain copper it apparently work hardens over the years (from vibration etc) and this can lead to the pipe cracking.

Automec have all the stuff you need (Never used them so can't comment on service etc)

Cheers

Jim

 

[langy]

The MoProd tool is ok for light use but make sure you lube the ends of the die, It has a small spigot that if not lubed will snap off.

do you know how i can get my hands on one of these moprod brake flaring tools please , I can not seem to find them on sale ?.

 

[langy]

Correct !!!

That's the Clarke one, sold under loads of different names. I've got one of those and it's crap.

 

[rtbcomp]

...
Always DOUBLE flare brakes, never single flare.

.....

Disagree.

Definitions : a single flare is convex, ie formed by a single operation of the flaring tool, a double flare is concave, formed by a double operation; i.e make a single flare first and then use the pointed punch to turn it into a double.

Double flare where a pipe interfaces to the convex end of a fitting, for example where a female pipe nut is used to join flexible to a solid pipe.

Single flare where it fits into a concave fitting, for example where a male nipple is used to fit a pipe into a cylinder. BE CAREFUL though, some slave cylinders have a convex end hidden in the bottom of the threaded hole, in which case use a double flare!

Do not use the pointed tool on its own to produce a concave end, it may look like a double flare, but it won't be strong enough because there isn't enough meat in there.

 

[langy]

I don't know of anyone that would single flare a brake pipe, Disagree all you like but i double flare all brake pipe fittings on the cars i build and have never had a pipe fail in 40 years.

Disagree.

Definitions : a single flare is convex, ie formed by a single operation of the flaring tool, a double flare is concave, formed by a double operation; i.e make a single flare first and then use the pointed punch to turn it into a double.

Double flare where a pipe interfaces to the convex end of a fitting, for example where a female pipe nut is used to join flexible to a solid pipe.

Single flare where it fits into a concave fitting, for example where a male nipple is used to fit a pipe into a cylinder. BE CAREFUL though, some slave cylinders have a convex end hidden in the bottom of the threaded hole, in which case use a double flare!

Do not use the pointed tool on its own to produce a concave end, it may look like a double flare, but it won't be strong enough because there isn't enough meat in there.

 

[rtbcomp]

I don't know of anyone that would single flare a brake pipe, Disagree all you like but i double flare all brake pipe fittings on the cars i build and have never had a pipe fail in 40 years.

Fair enough, perhaps all the fittings you use require double flares, but to say always use doubles is wrong, because some fittings are desigined for singles. Otherwise why would there be two types of flare?

Similarly I've never had a flare fail in 30 years (apart from a couple I made with the Clarke tool mentioned above )