Making brake pipes & flaring tool/bender.

[langy]

Maybe we are at cross purposes here, the first in this pic is what i refer to as a single flare, the second is a double, The double flare is far superior in strength, Single flares can crack behind the flare and break off.

Fair enough, perhaps all the fittings you use require double flares, but to say always use doubles is wrong, because some fittings are desigined for singles. Otherwise why would there be two types of flare?

Similarly I've never had a flare fail in 30 years (apart from a couple I made with the Clarke tool mentioned above )

 

[piman]

Hello Langy,

that's fine for a female flare but a male flare is single.

Alec

 

[rtbcomp]

Maybe we are at cross purposes here, .......

Yes we are!

Those flares aren't what I recognise as vehicle brake pipe flares, maybe very modern vehicles use them?

A single flare on a brake pipe is formed by pushing the end of the pipe into a die so it resembles a blob (for want of a better word), this blob is shaped to fit snugly into a concave receptacle. Tightening the union nut causes the blob to squeeze into the receptacle and form a seal.

A double flare (so named becuase it requires two operations to form it) is formed by doing a single flare and then pushing a pointed tool into it, forming a homogenous concave funnel shape, not folded over like in your pics. This funnel fits over the pointy part of a connection and again tightening the nut forms a proper seal.

It's worth noting that imperial and metric flares have a slightly different form and are not interchangeable.

I've got a Girling catalogue somewhere, if I can find it I'll scan some pics.

 

[Fergus]

If you can run to the extra the best flaring tool out there is the Sykes Pickavant flarer, There are also some great copies of this tool on Ebay that are good.

I've got a Sykes flaring tool and it is indeed excellent, they can be found for not very much if you keep your eyes open around the Car Boots and so on.

 

[langy]

Not on a car i'm afraid, i can't think of a car that doesn't use a double flare to be honest. In most cylinders there will be an inverted flare seat.
Single flares are used a lot in aviation along with 37 degree AN fittings

Hello Langy,

that's fine for a female flare but a male flare is single.

Alec

 

[langy]

The pointy bit your referring to is an inverted flare, usually found in the the bottom of master or wheel cylinders.

Yes we are!

Those flares aren't what I recognise as vehicle brake pipe flares, maybe very modern vehicles use them?

A single flare on a brake pipe is formed by pushing the end of the pipe into a die so it resembles a blob (for want of a better word), this blob is shaped to fit snugly into a concave receptacle. Tightening the union nut causes the blob to squeeze into the receptacle and form a seal.

A double flare (so named becuase it requires two operations to form it) is formed by doing a single flare and then pushing a pointed tool into it, forming a homogenous concave funnel shape, not folded over like in your pics. This funnel fits over the pointy part of a connection and again tightening the nut forms a proper seal.

It's worth noting that imperial and metric flares have a slightly different form and are not interchangeable.

I've got a Girling catalogue somewhere, if I can find it I'll scan some pics.

 

[piman]

Hello Langy,

I don't know what cars you are familiar with but older cars often have the single flare male that I referred to. From a production point of view it is easier to drill and tap a port in a cylinder with conventional drills so requiring a male flare on the brake\clutch pipe. To seat a double flare that you illustrated needs the base of the drilling to have a raised taper to seat the pipe.

Alec

 

[tux]

Hello Langy,

I don't know what cars you are familiar with but older cars often have the single flare male that I referred to. From a production point of view it is easier to drill and tap a port in a cylinder with conventional drills so requiring a male flare on the brake\clutch pipe. To seat a double flare that you illustrated needs the base of the drilling to have a raised taper to seat the pipe.

Alec

Have to say this has always been my experience too. But then my experience is not terribly extensive.

 

[rtbcomp]

I've seen the inverted flare (the pointy thing) in landrover SWB brake slave cylinders which requires a double flare. I'm not saying they're all like this though, best to check and use the same flare that the original pipe had.

The master cylinders (clutch and brake) have a concave bottom which requires a single flare. I think the Landrover twin leading shoe slaves also require a single flare.

Pipe T-pieces also require a single flare, as does the PDWA on twin circuit (Landy and Rangey) systems.

Where a flexible hose joins a solid pipe the end of the flexi has a convex end so requires a double flare on the pipe.

 

[rtbcomp]

Furthermore, on some calipers and LR 2LS slave cylinders the ports will take either bleed screws or pipes, so they must have concave seats for the bleed screw to seat on.

 

[the snooper]

ive not come across double flared pipes on cars either all singles

 

[JuiceBanger1]

i was watching ''a car is born'' yesterday on sky where the guy was making a Cobra kit car. It was on all day. he used a die and block thing to make the flare and like a plumbers wrench to put the bend in the pipes. looked very easy. they were both proper tools for hand bending pipes and making the flare. he did explain about the copper / nickle pipes being better as copper alone can split with vibration.

 

[piman]

Hello JB,

Automec who sell both cupro\nickel and pure copper brake lines have been doing so for very many years. I note that the copper line they sell is thicker wall than the cupro\nickel, presumably to offset the weaker copper relative to the alloy. I have used pure copper brake lines on many of my cars with no problems. Copper lines do need to be supported with twice as many fixings as the original steel lines.

I have one of Automec's Oakes made flaring tools and it works very well.

Alec

 

[Slim Shady]

get refrigeration copper 21g half hard or heavier or coils it is much heavier than all that stuff. Talk to a wholesale nicely and they will sell you some.

 

[rtbcomp]

I'd only use copper pipe if it was specified as brake pipe and installed as per the supplier's instructions, if an accident ocurred there could be repercussions, whether it was due to the pipe or not.

Personally I prefer Cupro-Nickel.

 

[langy]

I think we have a terminology problem here, I think you guys are talking about a bubble flare not a single flare ??? A single flare is like the end of a trumpet and won't seal correctly in the type of seating you mention although a bubble flare will.

Hello Langy,

I don't know what cars you are familiar with but older cars often have the single flare male that I referred to. From a production point of view it is easier to drill and tap a port in a cylinder with conventional drills so requiring a male flare on the brake\clutch pipe. To seat a double flare that you illustrated needs the base of the drilling to have a raised taper to seat the pipe.

Alec

 

[rtbcomp]

I think we have a terminology problem here, I think you guys are talking about a bubble flare not a single flare ......

That'll be it, although I've never heard the term "bubble flare" in the context of car brake pipes, only "single" and "double", although a quick Google shows it used extensively!

Makes more sense to use "bubble flare" I suppose then people from different disciplines can talk the same language. Would what I know as a "double" become a "double bubble?"

I think I'll put this on the Landrover Forum - get them at it!

 

[langy]

When i did my time the only terms used were single, bubble & double. The single flare was always used at 37 dgrees on AN (army/navy) fittings. Brakes were always bubble or double, If you think about a bubble tightened its very much like a double really.
The reason AN use a single flare is that on this fitting you use a female Tube nut & Sleeve thats supports it.

As for using copper brake pipe i just can't see why you would ??? Its known to fracture and Kunifer & bundy is so cheap anyway, I believe copper is actually banned in the U.S. because of the fracturing problem.

These days i use stainless brake pipe with double flares mostly as its bullet proof and looks nice also, This can also be a problem to some people as the correct stuff to use is double annealed tube which flares and bends nicely but some people just get 3/16" stainless tube and wonder why it breaks their flaring tools.
The difference in money is so small between the best stuff and the worst stuff i just don't understand people scrimping.

Kunifer 20ft roll £12-15
Stainless 20ft roll £24

That'll be it, although I've never heard the term "bubble flare" in the context of car brake pipes, only "single" and "double", although a quick Google shows it used extensively!

Makes more sense to use "bubble flare" I suppose then people from different disciplines can talk the same language. Would what I know as a "double" become a "double bubble?"

I think I'll put this on the Landrover Forum - get them at it!

 

[langy]

I didn't want to come over as a hard **** but there will be people reading this and possibly getting it wrong
Glad we got to the bottom of it all

That'll be it, although I've never heard the term "bubble flare" in the context of car brake pipes, only "single" and "double", although a quick Google shows it used extensively!

Makes more sense to use "bubble flare" I suppose then people from different disciplines can talk the same language. Would what I know as a "double" become a "double bubble?"

I think I'll put this on the Landrover Forum - get them at it!

 

[piman]

Hello Langy,

"As for using copper brake pipe i just can't see why you would ???"

When I started using it, there wasn't the cupro\nickel option, copper or steel was the two readily available brake lines. Having had so many problems with steel on the old crocks I could afford, copper was the way to go.
Pre WW2 copper brake lines were the standard brake lines that all manufacturers used, it was the scarcity and cost after the war that promoted the change to steel.

Alec