Tos FN22 milling machine (Deckel clone)

[Windy Miller]

I reset the drive again with no effect, then set the controls to external and wired in a fwd switch and speed pot. Now the rough running is gone on my test motor plus I can watch the frequency ref. It also works on my re-wired TOS motor but it's a bit whistly I think it might be simply because the motor is over-sized.

I'm getting to like these altivar drives could you send me that lik to the interface chip please and I'll make up a programming cable

I have a spare Eurotherm VFD and I still have that sealed motor I got off you for my lathe if you want to experiment with them @Pete.

 

[Pete.]

I have a spare Eurotherm VFD and I still have that sealed motor I got off you for my lathe if you want to experiment with them @Pete.

Thanks Andy but I think I'm good now

So today I have had a second crack at getting the input shaft out so that I can change the bearings. This is the shaft that carries the big pulley which takes drive from the motor belts.

It's a simple shaft with a bearing each end held in place by a circlip under the big pulley. First I removed the pulley (and discovered why the machine is mising it's rear cover in the process) then the circlip, then tried to extract that shaft. These bearings were in there very, very tight and it took a good bit of coaxing with aluminium packers and wedges between the housing and the thin gear to bring it out a millimeter at a time.

Eventually I got the bearings un-seated but the larger diameter gear wouldn't pass through the bearing hole at the rear and I couldn't get access to pull it off so I cut the bearing outer part off and pulled the shaft out from the inside. Once out I pulled off the end bearing and took stock of the shaft.

The reason why I think the rear cover is missing. At some point in the past the belt pulley has become loose on the shaft trashing both the hole in the pulley hub and the shaft that it is supposed to locate on.



Someone has remedied the situation (and made rather a nice job of it) by boring out the pulley and turning up a new hub.



The hub has two diameters - a smaller diameter that bears on the bit of the shaft that is NOT ruined, nearer it's end, and a larger diameter that presses onto the stepped section. By doing this they have spanned the damaged bit.



The only problem with all this is the new hub was twice as long as the original pulley hub, so I'm guessing that the shaft which should be poking through the rear cover is now too big for the hole and their solution was simply to leave the cover off, and consequently the machine has come to me with the cover completely missing.

 

[minimutly]

Thanks Andy but I think I'm good now

So today I have had a second crack at getting the input shaft out so that I can change the bearings. This is the shaft that carries the big pulley which takes drive from the motor belts.

View attachment 332625

It's a simple shaft with a bearing each end held in place by a circlip under the big pulley. First I removed the pulley (and discovered why the machine is mising it's rear cover in the process) then the circlip, then tried to extract that shaft. These bearings were in there very, very tight and it took a good bit of coaxing with aluminium packers and wedges between the housing and the thin gear to bring it out a millimeter at a time.

View attachment 332626

Eventually I got the bearings un-seated but the larger diameter gear wouldn't pass through the bearing hole at the rear and I couldn't get access to pull it off so I cut the bearing outer part off and pulled the shaft out from the inside. Once out I pulled off the end bearing and took stock of the shaft.

View attachment 332630

The reason why I think the rear cover is missing. At some point in the past the belt pulley has become loose on the shaft trashing both the hole in the pulley hub and the shaft that it is supposed to locate on.

View attachment 332627

Someone has remedied the situation (and made rather a nice job of it) by boring out the pulley and turning up a new hub.

View attachment 332628

The hub has two diameters - a smaller diameter that bears on the bit of the shaft that is NOT ruined, nearer it's end, and a larger diameter that presses onto the stepped section. By doing this they have spanned the damaged bit.

View attachment 332629

The only problem with all this is the new hub was twice as long as the original pulley hub, so I'm guessing that the shaft which should be poking through the rear cover is now too big for the hole and their solution was simply to leave the cover off, and consequently the machine has come to me with the cover completely missing.

To be fair it was probably waiting for a round tuit, but it never came?

 

[daleyd]

This is the last usb adaptor bought - I only bought this one as I needed 422 (5 wire) as well as RS485 comms and this one auto selects. It works on other drives too (I've used it on siemens, Toshiba and Mitsibushi)

The previous one only did 485 (3 wire) but worked perfectly for everything I used it for and was a bit cheaper (I still have it, just can't find it at moment!!)

For an Altivar drive I just use an old RJ45 patch lead - blue and blue/white wires (Blue to 1, blue/white to 2).

I connected it up to an ATV 12 I have here, this is the Operate menu - if you use these a lot then the software is a god send - if you've only got the one then you can do it all through the front panel

 

[Pete.]

This is the last usb adaptor bought - I only bought this one as I needed 422 (5 wire) as well as RS485 comms and this one auto selects. It works on other drives too (I've used it on siemens, Toshiba and Mitsibushi)

The previous one only did 485 (3 wire) but worked perfectly for everything I used it for and was a bit cheaper (I still have it, just can't find it at moment!!)

For an Altivar drive I just use an old RJ45 patch lead - blue and blue/white wires (Blue to 1, blue/white to 2).

I connected it up to an ATV 12 I have here, this is the Operate menu - if you use these a lot then the software is a god send - if you've only got the one then you can do it all through the front panel

Thanks I have bought one of those I can make a patch lead no problem

BTW what's your opinion on Panasonic VFD's? They don't seem to be very common.

 

[Pete.]

Bearings have arrived today for the motor, gearbox and input shaft. An assortment of SKF, NSK, Hoffman and a no-name brand. All new old stock from eBay.

 

[Hood]

Thanks I have bought one of those I can make a patch lead no problem

BTW what's your opinion on Panasonic VFD's? They don't seem to be very common.

Panasonic servo drives are decent so I expect the VFD's will be likewise.

 

[daleyd]

Thanks I have bought one of those I can make a patch lead no problem

BTW what's your opinion on Panasonic VFD's? They don't seem to be very common.

Sorry just looked it was a toshiba not a Panasonic (I knew it was japanese at least!)

I used it for the table drive motor on my mill - it was pretty good actually - I’ve not seen many of them but it was cheap enough on eBay and the comms worked with my hmi so I was pretty happy all in all. I struggled with getting the software to work - I wasn’t even sure if the sw I got was the right one- but I used the usb adaptor to test the Modbus comms to my pc. Wasn’t too bothered about the software as it was only 1 drive and didn’t need to change too much on it.

It’s the black/red fronted one next to the altivar in this thread…

Milling machine controls

With my recent acquisition of an Elliot Omnimill I discovered that the current controls are not really up to much (the prev owner just had the vertical head wired into an inverter and didn’t use the horizontal function, table feed or coolant pump). So with all that in mind I raided my stash of...

www.mig-welding.co.uk

 

[Pete.]

Tonight's job was to re-install the input shaft with it's new bearings. No photos of that but it's all fitted and running nice and smooth now. After that was time to strip out the gearbox. I should have liked to re-build it right away but if I do that I'm going to have to try and rub the paint and filler down with it all fitted on the machine, or else fill the new open cage bearings with sanding grit. So it's going to have to stay apart until I get a chance to fill and prime the face plate. I will try to get that done this week as I want to get this all back together.









All of the components, the gears, the spline shafts and the selectors are in excellent condition. It's all fully-hardened BTW and the bearing seats ground. Quality parts that are 62 years old yet show no wear even on the splines. Even the bearings were not that bad. Two were a little rumbly, two turning smooth just a little loose and two that were still turning nicely. I will change them all anyway.

 

[Pete.]

This is the last usb adaptor bought - I only bought this one as I needed 422 (5 wire) as well as RS485 comms and this one auto selects. It works on other drives too (I've used it on siemens, Toshiba and Mitsibushi)

The previous one only did 485 (3 wire) but worked perfectly for everything I used it for and was a bit cheaper (I still have it, just can't find it at moment!!)

For an Altivar drive I just use an old RJ45 patch lead - blue and blue/white wires (Blue to 1, blue/white to 2).

I connected it up to an ATV 12 I have here, this is the Operate menu - if you use these a lot then the software is a god send - if you've only got the one then you can do it all through the front panel

View attachment 332672

I bought that interface, delivered this evening, hooked up a RJ45 lead to it whilst the software was downloading and installing and it connected right to the drive no effort. Damn handy having all the parameters on view and I can see me making good use of the monitoring panel when I get the machine hooked up.

Thanks for the link, ad the connection instructions @daleyd

 

[Pete.]

This evening I decided to get the remainder of the internals stripped out I cut out all of the wiring and two electrical panels (more about these later). Didn't bother to record any of the electrical because it's all getting scrapped. Left undisturbed the wiring might last another 20 years but just manipulating them is enough for the insulation to brake leaving exposed conductors, so the whole lot is coming out.



Anyway, out with the wiring and the suds pump and the motor mount and adjusters, then the feed gearbox. To get this out you have to remove the bevel gearbox in the top of the machine that supplies power feeds to the y-axis, and draw it out from the top, then you block up the gearbox in the base of the machine and un-bolt it from the front, taking care not to let it drop down and damage the feed gear that drives the X and Z axis in the console table.

Once it's out it looks like this. The pulley takes drive from the spindle pulley via long vee belts and the clearly knackered idler wheel is to tension the belt. The hole in the top is for the top-side feed rod and the large sprocket on the side is to operate the gear-changer. The small sprocket is the chain tensioner. The big gear on the front is the power feed for the table.



Here's how it sends power to the bevel box in the top of the machine.



This is where it bolts up to and the feed gear is just visible at the top.



Anyway I had already tested the gear change and it was all working but since I had it this far out I wanted to check it all over. I removed the top feed flange and found these springs under the four bolts. some kind of friction adjuster.



Turned out that's exactly what they were, the four large screws put tension on the springs which each hold down a pointed plunger that locates into a divot in the plate below, so it's a safety clutch for the feed unit. I messed up the photo but I'll take one when I re-assemble it tomorrow.

With the top off I dipped the oil and found it is nice and clean which is a good sign.



I took the lid off the gearbox and it all looks perfect inside. I took the opportunity to manually set it in the lowest gear because the feed lever was a little out of sync. Once I got it in gea rI put punch marks on the sprocket so I can adjust the chain selector later.

This is a nice unit, more complicated than it looks having several reduction units, three different selector mechanisms worm finae and a sprag cutch on the input so that it will only operate with the spindle running in the forward direction. If this unit didn;t work I would have fitted an electrical drive unit in it's place but as it's so nice I'll be keeping it.

 

[Pete.]

Yesterday I got the gearbox rebuilt. I filled it with fresh oil and put a tiny bead of sealant around the rim.



Here's the filler hole, the filler is missing so I'll have to make another.



I fitted the lid and the top flange which has a bronze bush for the top end of the output shaft. Then the bottom half of the feeds clutch went on a keyway.



These are the four spring-loaded dogs, they poke down into dimples in the bottom section



Now the top half of the clutch goes on held with a circlip. The integral gear does the feeds for the table. The plunger adjusters are set at different heights because there were 3 different lengths of spring in the assembly.



Finally the drive flange for the top-side feed rod bolts to the top of the clutch.



That's it ready to go except for the filler cap I have yet to make.

 

[Pete.]

Today was paint-scraping day. I scraped 90% of it off with a normal paint scraper. I don't know what the red stuff is they used for filler in the '60's but they used a lot of it

I did the easy side first.

Then the other side which had a lot more features.

I used a scraper then ran the DA sander over it lightly to prevent stripping the filler back to metal as much as possible. When I did the attachments I had no choice but the remove the filler because it was in dradful condition but the filler on this main body is quite good and I don't want to spend another week of evenings filling and sanding.

The reason I'm doing this now is so that I can rebuild the gearbox and fit the covers so they can be painted in place. I couldnt risk getting sanding debris in all the new bearings I have bought plus the gearbox is so damn heavy and awkward to lift I'm worried I'll trash the new paint re-building and re-fitting it. ame goes for the feed gearbox and motor. Also I'm not yet doing the Z and X axis tables. They will be removed and painted separately when I've generated some bench space by re-fitting the gearbox and motor.

 

[Pete.]

By the way I'm looking for someone to make a new rear cover for me. This is what it should look like:

https://flic.kr/p/LBLSM

Mine won't have the hole in the bottom for the little black lever. I've no idea what that is for my machine doesn't have it.

If anyone fancies it for a paying job plz let me know by PM I want it made from 3mm steel and I don't mind if the louvres are made from thinner gauge and fixed on.

EDIT: actually the one in the pic looks a lot thinner than 3mm, perhaps 2mm thick. I don't mind so long as it doesn't ring when the machine is running.

 

[Brad93]

By the way I'm looking for someone to make a new rear cover for me. This is what it should look like:

https://flic.kr/p/LBLSM

Mine won't have the hole in the bottom for the little black lever. I've no idea what that is for my machine doesn't have it.

If anyone fancies it for a paying job plz let me know by PM I want it made from 3mm steel and I don't mind if the louvres are made from thinner gauge and fixed on.

EDIT: actually the one in the pic looks a lot thinner than 3mm, perhaps 2mm thick. I don't mind so long as it doesn't ring when the machine is running.

You'll need someone with a bloody big press and some real strong tooling to punch louvres in 2mm steel

 

[Pete.]

You'll need someone with a bloody big press and some real strong tooling to punch louvres in 2mm steel

I know that's why I said it could be a panel. I'd rather it wasn't but you have to be practical.

 

[Agroshield]

Vintage car coachbuilders would make a louvre panel that could be bolted on or welded in, for a seamless look. E.g. https://www.dmark.co.uk/custom-made-aluminium-louvred-panels/ . Industrial machinery enclosures and possibly electrical cabinets (from a demolition job) might have a section that could be salvaged. Go out and rob the door off your local NTL comms cabinet.

It would be possible to make the curve on the sides using this technique:

Make the panel in two halves, trim to fit and then weld together so the two bends have no dependency on each other.

If the bending radius matches an off-the shelf tube section, that will help; if not, the plywood former is easy to make. The secret of the method appears to be to have an excess of material to pull on. If necessary, drill through the sheet so you can bolt it and the former to the bench at regular intervals (M5 or M6 as easy to fill the holes afterwards). If the metal thickness means the bending takes too much effort, maybe kerf cut the rear and weld/braze/solder up when finished.

If it does ring in use, the stick on sound-attenuation mat (looks like Bituthene) could be used.

 

[daedalusminos]

Go thinner and weld in strengthening webs and fold a return on the edge for extra strength. If it drums then add some sound deadening pads.

 

[Pete.]

Turns out the cover is 16 gauge steel. A kind owner has sent me these pics.

 

[Brad93]

16 gauge not too bad to form