1958 Deckel FP2

[DennisCA]

I've been spending the last few days on shop reorganization. The mill and lathe now sit like this:

Today I worked on the electrics for the FP2. I decided to add another 3-phase outlet to the electrical box. That way I won't need to run a cable for the lathe and can plug both mill and lathe to the same spot.

The additional outlet is not hooked up to the switch but is always live if the electrical box is hooked up.

Almost everything is hooked up. One really weird thing is the yellow cable that goes to a regular 230V outlet on the front, I tested the terminals it's hooked up to and it's hooked up phase to phase (!), so anyone plugging anything in there expecting 230V will get 400V single phase. I have no idea what the previous owners used this for, but good thing I didn't plug in anything.

Regarding the color scheme on the cables, it's not the modern standard and I decided to reuse old cables and hook them up using the same color scheme to keep everything the same.

I also removed this transformer to make room for the 3ph outlet. I am not sure if it's original or what purpose it served. It's a 230 - 100V transformer but only 100W. Not sure what need I'd have for that.

I also re-routed some of the wall outlets, fortunately an easy task since the cables are all just held to the walls with cable clamps and not hidden. I decided I really don't want to have a cable across the floor so I routed the outlet to the ceiling instead, as close as I got it, then I will drop down a power cable to the electrical box.

 

[Carl Wilson]

Looking really good.

 

[DennisCA]

Went over the schematic again and I had some wrong conclusions last night about the single phase outlet, got the wrong idea with a multimeter but it turns out everything is OK.

First test runs. Just checking the noise level. It's IMO very quiet at all speeds with the horizontal spindle. The vertical spindle gets more noisy at higher speeds but it's soley because of the gears inside the long reach head, the straight ones. Not excessive noise I guess, but the spindles themselves are nice and quiet IMO.

Haven't bothered hooking up a 12V source to the buttons yet.

 

[Carl Wilson]

Fantastic sight. Seems to be working wonderfully! I look forward to seeing my mill working as smoothly and looking as good as yours.

 

[DennisCA]

Project continues unabated, rest of the day I spent prepping parts that still need to be painted. For these parts with lots of difficult to reach places I decided to get serious and I used a hot lye bath, dangerous stuff but oh so effective. It was so effective I cleaned a bunch off small parts too. Makes the ultrasonic cleaner look like a chump. Also used a pressure washer and compressor to blow dry. Then WD-40 on a rag on the more sensitive areas.

I am beat now, tomorrow I will mask the parts to be painted....

 

[Carl Wilson]

By lye do you mean Sodium Hydroxide?

 

[DennisCA]

Yeah that's it

 

[DennisCA]

Painted the work table (and other parts) and reassembled it, now all I need is a vise, and some end mills and other tooling.

Also the horizontal mill support got refinished, here I am trying it out for the first time

Next step is to begin reassembling the DRO I think, and hook up the 12V so I can have some lights on the on off buttons.

Would be nice to paint he doors too this week though.... Last week of vacation now and when that is gone my productivity is gone too. Back to a day a week of shop time more or less then.

 

[fizzy]

Brilliant work Dennis almost there now!
Better than new when you have finished.

 

[Carl Wilson]

It is quite simply a stunning piece of work.

 

[Ian Gillespie]

This morning I started the removal of the headstock:

I'm also working on a FP2 Mill with a problem I'm trying to fix. Could you tell me is the Y axis lead screw fastened to the rear bearing or does it just pull out. The problem I'm having is the Y axis hand and power feed on work sometimes. I cant get my head around how it all works.

Following the manual, all the stop dogs and indicators were removed earlier so removing the cover strip on the front. Part of the bellows were removed earlier as well.

Next I loosened the screws and removed assembly 4 in the manual, the blindd tapered pins are stuck real well, I thought helped to have the screws loosened, did not want to budge otherwise. Slide hammer is required. Good thing they are M6 at least.

Then I can remove the screw assembly by backing it out and supporting it with one hand

Next I remove the tapered gib

A quick cleanup shows the gib to look mostly fine, there wear is highly localized to a few spots near the narrower end.

After that I can lift up on the headstock and slide it off.

But I stopped here because the headstock feels too heavy to support by hand, I am wondering how I best go about it. Support it from the crane maybe, through the hole left when removing the horizontal spindle perhaps. I assume the Deckel people assumed you'd have two workers to lift it off.

 

[DennisCA]

I'm also working on a FP2 Mill with a problem I'm trying to fix. Could you tell me is the Y axis lead screw fastened to the rear bearing or does it just pull out. The problem I'm having is the Y axis hand and power feed on work sometimes. I cant get my head around how it all works.

I never removed the lead screw from the holder in my disassembly of the machine. I removed the two screws holding the assembly to the cover so I could paint the cover but I went no further.

Looking at this drawing, it seems the lead screw is retained with a pin perhaps:

At any rate I am pretty sure something retains the screw, not just friction.

 

[DennisCA]

In Deckel land not everything is roses and sunshine anymore. I hadn't detected any issues on this earlier but yeah I'm missing some speeds in the gear box...

Gotta drain the gear box and take off the operators panel again.... Fortunately this time nothing is seized or difficult to get off, took 5-10 minutes.

And the cover is off. The cover contains a timing clockwork mechanism and this moves change gear clusters around for various speeds in the gear box. I noted that this is slowest speed setting 40 rpm so I know how the forks are to be positioned for lowest speed. I think I am going to have to try and cycle through the speeds and see if there's anything amiss.

Not really seeing anything wrong with the gears, one of them looks to be only half engaged as I left it so maybe it's a timing issue.

Here's a view of the gearbox diagram, big so I linked it:
https://i.imgur.com/tF81lmy.png

I also found this pretty good video explaining a FP3 gearbox, from what I can see it looks near identical to the FP2 gearbox.

So if I understand this gearbox correctly, the timing mechanisms lower wheel moves the two three-gear clusters according to some "clockwork logic" and the upper wheel switches the big central gear to go between low and high speeds. The clockwork logic moves the two clusters of 3x gears in various combinations that gives a total of 9 possible speeds, for either high and low speeds.

In the lower and higher gears it's the 2nd highest speeds I am having issues with. Though in the higher range the I am also having issues with 800 rpm. Perhaps there is something with the lower gear at the corresponding speed but I did not detect it. Perhaps the spindle is still driven through friction or something and this works at low speeds but not high speeds as there are no loads. Something makes me suspect the spindle might stop rotating at the equivalent low speed of 100 rpm under load if I were to try anything. Gonna sit on my ass and think for a while now.

 

[DennisCA]

Problem found, I am pretty sure! Wow that was fast eh, just got to type out that message and I went into the shop and found it in a minute....

I moved the gear clusters into second gear like in the video and turned the inching wheel around, i was going to go through the gear positions and test to see if anything odd struck me and it did. What I discover is that in 2nd gear (I assume based on the FP3 video) power is not transferred properly and I found the culprit. the 65 tooth gear is free to move! It should be locked to the shaft with the other two wheels. I think this explains why I am having issues and only in some speeds. Anyone know how the gear is locked to the shaft? I would like to avoid disassembly.... But at least I don't have to deal with the timing mechanism.

 

[DennisCA]

I have found some images showing the parts of the gear shaft on my FP2 and it has two shaft keys locking the gear in question (2001-345).

The current theory is the mill crashed and sheared the two keys off clean. So if that is the case, a replacement is needed and disassembly of the shaft as well.

 

[DennisCA]

I have begun the disassembly of the shaft. I got the cover plug off from the Z-axis, I made my own tool to remove it, not as pretty, but it's what I was able to make without a working mill. I use two 4 mm drills clamped between two plates of steel. With the the drill bits loosely clamped I oriented them so they fit in the corresponding pin holes of the plug, then I tightened it up with bolts so the drill bits would retain their positions. then I cut off the excess bits sticking out the back and tig welded the backside together. Then I had a suitable large bolt I welded that part to. I could then put the new "tool" into my large socket wrench with a 38mm socket, and then I got the leverage required to open it.

This is the lock nut I assume, was easy to remove, the single set screw was pretty tight but not unreasonably so.

This last nut only required fingers to unscrew, nothing aside from the plug itself was that tight

Next step was to remove the upper pulley and drive belts so I can access the rear of the shaft. I did not take photos of that, but I got all the parts removed and the front and rear bearings of the shaft. But the shaft is stuck. I also noted it has only one key, not two:

Maybe Deckel moved to two keys in the future to prevent the key shearing off. I believe it's where it sheared that metal has moved and gotten the thing stuck. I think I need to make some kind of pushing arrangement, but I am also worried about the casting in the middle of the machine, it would press up against that and it doesn't look that thick. Breaking that would be catastrophic.

 

[DennisCA]

Someone brighter than me pointed out that if the third wheel with the broken key is not aligned correctly, I won't be able to get it off, the remains of the key that is not broken needs to pass through the keyway in the gear with the broken off key in it. So I am going try a clamping solution while I am rotating the wheel and hopefully I will be able to feel when I get it right.

If that is not I am not sure what I can do, I can't see any other recourse than except something drastic like drilling away the material of the shaft so the key can be pushed out the front. Obviously a solution for the desperate.

 

[oilyneil]

Could you thread a piece of bar internally to screw onto the end of the shaft then use that with a puller against the outside face to help pull the shaft through?
A bit like a 2 leg puller but with jacking bolts on the 2 legs rather than the centre.
Hopefully that would save putting any stress on the center web of the casting?

 

[DennisCA]

That wouldn't work I'm afraid. No place to put such a bar, and the shaft needs to go out the back and so the gears that are stuck come to rest against the webbing. And also if I don't align the broken off key in the slot somehow I won't be able to get it off.

I've been trying to put force between the second and third gear to force them apart but it really doesn't wanna move.

 

[DennisCA]

Some success was had today, finally got the gears moving! I had to make my own expanders or spreaders from M8 bolts and coupling nuts that I turned down so they'd fit. Then I was able to spread some of the stuck gears apart and I can now see the key were it has sheared (2nd pic), think I need to get rid of the cracked bits to have a chance at getting the last gear over that broken key.