2K Safety - Leason learnt

[charlysays]

The bottom line is that 2k and especially clearcoat lacquers,, should only be used with an air fed mask.
ive previously used it with 3m mask and cartridge filters which are supposedlly effective...they arent.
i spent a week in bed struggling to breath and shivering like a wet dog after getting isocyanate poisoning, and refuse to use a facemask now unless its airfed (and through a filtered air supply).
Anyone doing any different is a bloody idiot......

There is a polyamide cured 2k clear coat from HMG paints called nisocoat 2 which could be worth a look, atleast a trial. I used the direct gloss from that range and it has dried very hard, thick and glossy with only two coats like a iso 2k. It is more prone to orange peel though than a proper 2k car paint.

its not as expensive as you might think. air fed mask =£200, 3stage filter=£600
800 quid is a bit of an outlay, but if you look at how much you will spend on mask filters (which arent recommended anyway, either by 3m or HSE, and are gonna be causing yet more harm) its probably a few years worth.?

are your lungs worth £800?

or would you rather have breathing issues/asthma for the rest of your life?
Christ, i'm turning into my dad.......

I only used one set of abek2p3 filters on my respray. I did use an isocyanate free 2k though, I fully agree people shouldn't spray isocyanate paints with anything other than proper air fed. The filters were a bit harder to breathe through by the end but I still couldn't smell any solvent (and I was always careful to wear the mask even when just mixing etc so my nose would stay sensitive to the solvent smell).
So £35 for one set of filters for one respray (inside and engine bay not painted, just outer panels and shuts).

 

[charlysays]

Fair enough, I don't know enough to try and determine anything from an SDS hence I posted/asked about it here. Looks like it's not the way out of the conundrum I thought it was then.

Consider ordering a litre of hmg nisocoat 2 clear coat and the 9061 hardener and experiment with it. Noone seems to have tried it yet however I had good results with their direct gloss. The SDS shows nothing of concern beyond what you find in epoxy primers and the manufacturer confirmed air fed is not required to spray it.

 

[carbon]

its not as expensive as you might think. air fed mask =£200, 3stage filter=£600

A lot less than that a 3 stage filter set can be purchased for approx £200 3 stage filters

 

[DennisCA]

Consider ordering a litre of hmg nisocoat 2 clear coat and the 9061 hardener and experiment with it. Noone seems to have tried it yet however I had good results with their direct gloss. The SDS shows nothing of concern beyond what you find in epoxy primers and the manufacturer confirmed air fed is not required to spray it.

Been looking for quite a while now but not found anything, sent out several feelers to paint dealers, even to germany but no go.

I found a 3M S-200+ used for 120€ on german ebay though. Hoping to cobble together something for less than 600 pounds at least.

 

[charlysays]

Been looking for quite a while now but not found anything, sent out several feelers to paint dealers, even to germany but no go.

I found a 3M S-200+ used for 120€ on german ebay though. Hoping to cobble together something for less than 600 pounds at least.

Ah right, might be hard to find abroad. Try UK suppliers like Rawlins and online paint shop to see if they would ship abroad?
I know someone who's been using the nisocoat 2 clear over a normal solvent automotive basecoat and it works well, easier to spray than the direct gloss too. Slight yellow tinge to it which is worth bearing in mind but I have heard lots of isocyanate clear coats are slightly yellow too.

Other similar products include cromadex 800 and ultrimax 2 but I don't know if those come as clear coat but they are probably the same chemistry - 2k acrylic utilising polyamide epoxy type hardeners which somehow manage to achieve excellent exterior durability with good to excellent colour and gloss retention.

 

[DennisCA]

There's a local paint producer, Maston which sells 2K paint cans, but it's not like a regular 2k can where you puncture it and then gotta use the can before it sets, can keep using it until empty. They've had some major problems with that product though, water inclusion in the cans ruining the product I've read. But I've heard people using it with good results too.

Anyway they say its isocyanate free. So I asked if one could buy it for use with spray guns. No idea if they will even bother replying. So I might as well buy that kit, think I am gonna need it.

Still interested in the UV curing stuff too, the notion of not having to mix is super appealling.... It's such a messy thing and worse when you don't have a dedicated painting area. Basically just doing it on top of my table saw.

Buying from the UK feels like it'd be too much of a hassle post-brexit so I was banking on finding an EU source or giving up.

 

[charlysays]

There's a local paint producer, Maston which sells 2K paint cans, but it's not like a regular 2k can where you puncture it and then gotta use the can before it sets, can keep using it until empty. They've had some major problems with that product though, water inclusion in the cans ruining the product I've read. But I've heard people using it with good results too.

Anyway they say its isocyanate free. So I asked if one could buy it for use with spray guns. No idea if they will even bother replying. So I might as well buy that kit, think I am gonna need it.

Still interested in the UV curing stuff too, the notion of not having to mix is super appealling.... It's such a messy thing and worse when you don't have a dedicated painting area. Basically just doing it on top of my table saw.

Buying from the UK feels like it'd be too much of a hassle post-brexit so I was banking on finding an EU source or giving up.

I wonder what those cans are. In the UK we get paint sold as "2K converted" which is 2K base with some gloop added which basically just stops it staying sticky but it never cures and never goes properly hard.

Cromadex is owned by Akzo Nobel who are a Dutch multi national so you may be able to get hold of Cromadex 800 in Europe.

 

[maroon]

I've never used a filter. Run a mask from a second small compressor outside. White onesie. never paid much attention to covering hands up. No gloves or whatavia. No spray booth or anything. Soak the floor and run water until finished. Like painting stood in a river, keeps overspray down and dust flying up. Wellies on.

 

[Keith 66]

There are some epoxy mastics and primers designed to cure down to 5celcius , sometimes even lower but agreed you have to warm the substrate to make sure it's dry from dew etc

^^^^ Application in borderline or cooling temperatures can often lead to amine blush which is where a waxy by product forms on the surface of the epoxy as it cures. A slow cure in damp conditions will often cause it. Some epoxies such as West or SP Systems commonly used in the boat trade are very prone to it & other paints with similar chemistry may well be. Amine blush stops adhesion of subsequent coats very well. It can be washed off before further coats.
Although this thread was primarily about the health risks of paints containing Isocyanate its worth remembering that epoxies are not without risks & there is a lot of concern about the carcinogenic risks attached to use of bisphenol a major component of epoxies.

 

[Bobo]

I'll be looking at doing a flat roof repair on a neighbour's garage. I found this stuff on ebay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275080531682
and I've just noticed it's got Isocyanates in it. As long as I wear a mask can anyone see any problems with this? Bearing in mind I'll only be brushing it on and I'm on top of a garage so no problems on the ventilation front.

 

[Lewis_RX8]

I'll be looking at doing a flat roof repair on a neighbour's garage. I found this stuff on ebay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275080531682
and I've just noticed it's got Isocyanates in it. As long as I wear a mask can anyone see any problems with this? Bearing in mind I'll only be brushing it on and I'm on top of a garage so no problems on the ventilation front.

They should have a COSHH sheet and may advise on the PPE to be used by the company or contact them directly and ask? , Rather have it from the horses mouth than a fella on a welding forum

 

[charlysays]

^^^^ Application in borderline or cooling temperatures can often lead to amine blush which is where a waxy by product forms on the surface of the epoxy as it cures. A slow cure in damp conditions will often cause it. Some epoxies such as West or SP Systems commonly used in the boat trade are very prone to it & other paints with similar chemistry may well be. Amine blush stops adhesion of subsequent coats very well. It can be washed off before further coats.
Although this thread was primarily about the health risks of paints containing Isocyanate its worth remembering that epoxies are not without risks & there is a lot of concern about the carcinogenic risks attached to use of bisphenol a major component of epoxies.

I worked a lot with west system in the past and yes, it does amine blush a lot.

Jotamastic winter grade however doesn't seem to at all. No mention of it in the data sheet either, so I think it's all good and must use resins which don't blush. It just calls for the substrate to be somewhat above dew point at application then gives curing and overcoat times at various temperatures down to -5 celcius. There are other jotun epoxy paints which do amine blush and the data sheet says as much but as said, no mention in the jotamastic data sheet. It's designed for application in highly corrosive environments such as offshore industries etc so having to maintain a certain temperature for 24 hrs or so between coats and thereafter to avoid amine blush would make it fairly useless for that industry.

Totally agree re epoxies being a health risk, I wear a full hazmat suit and full face respirator with the best filters if I'm spraying it. Even if I'm not spraying it I wear two pairs of disposable gloves, overalls and full face respirator with the best ABEK2P3 filters.
In boat building college I was always taught to avoid any exposure whatsoever to epoxy as over time, sensitisation to it becomes a major factor in being able to continue using it.

However, the reality is that the aforementioned spec of PPE far exceeds what the SDS calls for. In the case of isocyanate cured paints, it doesn't even meet the minimum spec.

 

[Keithmac]

We use this at work says it's "nitro alkyd". Works well on motorcycle parts.

Not 2k though but easier for us to use.

Is cellulose really that bad of a paint for home use?.

 

[charlysays]

We use this at work says it's "nitro alkyd". Works well on motorcycle parts.

Not 2k though but easier for us to use.

Is cellulose really that bad of a paint for home use?.

View attachment 367991

There are much better alternatives now if you want something with good weather resistance. HMG nisocoat 2 for example- both direct gloss and clear coat and it cured to a hard high solids 2k finish and contains no isocyanates.

 

[ukracer]

There are much better alternatives now if you want something with good weather resistance. HMG nisocoat 2 for example- both direct gloss and clear coat and it cured to a hard high solids 2k finish and contains no isocyanates.

So I have a bonnet and a couple of wings that are a bit rough. Lacquer peeling etc.
If I was to ask for HMG nisocoat at my local paint supplier is that better than cellulose?

 

[charlysays]

So I have a bonnet and a couple of wings that are a bit rough. Lacquer peeling etc.
If I was to ask for HMG nisocoat at my local paint supplier is that better than cellulose?

Definitely better than celly in every way except perhaps application. I used 40% slow 2k thinner, 40psi gun pressure on my 1.3mm cheapo sealey hvlp and still had some light orange peel. Probably not ideal for a repair where you need a colour match. The clear has a yellow tinge to it which is fine if you're painting the whole car but if trying to blend it'll probably look darker than it should.

 

[Siddus74]

Quite an interesting thread, from what ive read paint has come a long way.

Ive got some MIPA EP 100-20 fornmy project - Ive read the TDS and cant see any mention of the iso nasties...

Im assuming that moderen 2K Epoxy primers no longer contain them?

Any advice is welcomed.

 

[Dcal]

Epoxy primer doesn't contain isocyanates, never did.
2k primers top coats and lacquers do.

Nice car.
What is it?

 

[julianf]

Epoxy is different chemistry, but coating your lungs with epoxy probably isn't the greatest plan either...

However, yes, a good particulate mask will deal with epoxy. Or at least all the epoxy that does not leak around the side of the mask and bypass the filter...

 

[Kram]

You need the SDS rather than TDS. There is still lots of nasties in epoxy and worth having a good look through the ingredients. Usually the hardener is worse/more reactive/irritating in a 2 part system.

https://www.mipa-paints.com/fileadmin/product/gb/sdb/ind/Mipa_EP_100-20_2K-EP-Grund_GB.pdf

https://mipa-paints.uk/Content/Images/uploaded/SafetySheets/017550000_EP_950-10_EP-Haerter_GB.pdf