Adventures in an all electric vehicle.

[pressbrake1]

^^^^^ one of the best posts in this thread, sums it all up nicely. The only reason my son got the car is it is very heavily subsidised for him and it really is a no brainer, if I could get the same deal I would jump at it. However, the practicalities of it won't work for me, I would need a second vehicle :-( So I might as well just stay with the one vehicle that does it all.

As a side note, in my youth I helped maintain my family's fleet of 28 electric Milk Floats so I am not new to electric vehicles, in fact I probably have more experience of electrics than any two people on here and it is a racing certainty I have spent more hours in one. So I am not unfamiliar with the concept or use of electrics and very familiar with the shortcomings. I also have the scars to show how you shouldn't do certain things with electric vehicles, I have had traction batteries blow up on me, set on fire in front of me and leak a good quantity of H2SO4 everywhere all without warning! Okay, Lithium don't leak Sulphuric but they DO burn with an intensity unmatched by any other battery.
I also have plenty of experience with the vagaries of charging them up.

Three phase high voltage motors and integrated inverters won’t have much in command with dc and thyristors

 

[GRW]

I’m neither wealthy or foolish (well not in my eyes anyway) but to answer a few points:

Depreciation - similar or less than an equivalent ice car

Expensive failure - the same as any modern ice vehicle, with the addition of an 8 year as opposed to 3 year warranty on battery/drive system (eg engine/gearbox on ice)

I’ve said before that we bought an ev with an open mind, and no preconceptions. We spent the same amount as we would have spent on an ice car - of course if we aren’t in a position to buy a new car then we might have made a different choice, but there you go. Not for everyone (certainly if you aren’t able to home charge then it would be a non starter) but also if you take an objective view they aren’t quite as bad as some folk would have you think.

Depreciation... May be similar to some (certainly not all) NEW ICE cars (though of course you can get a new ICE car for rather less than the cheapest EV).

However, the planet is awash with much cheaper USED ICE cars, cars that represent a high potential for reliability & reasonable operating cost, with no discernible increased risk of failure.
In addition, faults can be repaired at lower cost than say Inverters in EV's, while used & aftermarket components are readily available.

Mfrs ARE narrowing the gap in operating & opersting life costs between ICE & EV for sure.... but they are doing so by making the ICE more electronically complex and coded, poorer built & less-corrosion-resistant, less reliable and far more costly to repair.
There can be little doubt that there is a concerted & combined/colluding effort by the car industry to drive sales by making the car increasingly into a consumer-disposable product, instead of a durable.

Looked at purely as what it is - a mode if transport, and viewed objectively - the modern new car does nothing whatsoever appreciably better than its counterpart of 25-years-ago - to claim otherwise is ludicrous and demonstrably not the case. The reality (once you get past all the sales fluff & marketing flim-flam) is that they do the same job, but at appreciably higher cost, with a shorter operational life, and very often with poorer reliability.

All of which, are very sound (economic & practical) reasons to avoid EV's (AND any new ICE car).... because they simply are too expensive, offer bad VFM, and any benefits in cost per mile in fuel, are lost with interest just about everywhere else.
I run an old car because it saves me a small fortune, for no real penalty in terms of performance & fitness for purpose (in fact it has a solid chance of edging ahead in these areas - & if it fails beyond redemption, I still only stand to lose perhaps the equivalent of a couple of months depreciation value on a new EV.... probably less than that).

You may have thought it through.... but so have I

 

[daleyd]

Depreciation... May be similar to some (certainly not all) NEW ICE cars (though of course you can get a new ICE car for rather less than the cheapest EV).

However, the planet is awash with much cheaper USED ICE cars, cars that represent a high potential for reliability & reasonable operating cost, with no discernible increased risk of failure.
In addition, faults can be repaired at lower cost than say Inverters in EV's, while used & aftermarket components are readily available.

Mfrs ARE narrowing the gap in operating & opersting life costs between ICE & EV for sure.... but they are doing so by making the ICE more electronically complex and coded, poorer built & less-corrosion-resistant, less reliable and far more costly to repair.
There can be little doubt that there is a concerted & combined/colluding effort by the car industry to drive sales by making the car increasingly into a consumer-disposable product, instead of a durable.

Looked at purely as what it is - a mode if transport, and viewed objectively - the modern new car does nothing whatsoever appreciably better than its counterpart of 25-years-ago - to claim otherwise is ludicrous and demonstrably not the case. The reality (once you get past all the sales fluff & marketing flim-flam) is that they do the same job, but at appreciably higher cost, with a shorter operational life, and very often with poorer reliability.

All of which, are very sound (economic & practical) reasons to avoid EV's (AND any new ICE car).... because they simply are too expensive, offer bad VFM, and any benefits in cost per mile in fuel, are lost with interest just about everywhere else.
I run an old car because it saves me a small fortune, for no real penalty in terms of performance & fitness for purpose (in fact it has a solid chance of edging ahead in these areas - & if it fails beyond redemption, I still only stand to lose perhaps the equivalent of a couple of months depreciation value on a new EV.... probably less than that).

You may have thought it through.... but so have I

You’ve made the right choice for your circumstances as have I.

I wouldn’t presume you to be either poor or super intelligent for making such a choice, not sure why you would think I would be stupid or wealthy for not making the same choice as yourself?

They are of course not going to be a top choice for someone looking for a sub £1000 workhorse but you are not comparing apples with apples there. I wouldn’t comment on a thread asking for advice on “what car can I get for £1000” and suggest a new ev. That would be madness.

 

[atomant48]

Looked at purely as what it is - a mode if transport, and viewed objectively - the modern new car does nothing whatsoever appreciably better than its counterpart of 25-years-ago - to claim otherwise is ludicrous and demonstrably not the case. The reality (once you get past all the sales fluff & marketing flim-flam) is that they do the same job, but at appreciably higher cost, with a shorter operational life, and very often with poorer reliability.

Out of interest do you mean “getting from A to B in a given elapsed time”?

 

[GRW]

Modern ice cars have serious amounts of electronics bombarded with heat, oil, coolant etc. German cars are total junk
I like the mrs little leaf , I like everything about it apart from the small battery that’s non thermally managed . I like that the firmware is open source now . I’m comfortable with with inverters encoders and high power electric motors. I like that it’s not a German car which suffer from dog unreliable but with a nice interior and pleasing door clunk

The Leaf is the only concept of EV I might consider if my circumstances fitted (I.e. if I was retired, only needed a car for short journeys, with no difficulty charging it at home etc... and with a chance if it being repairable and kept operational at reasonable cost).

(All of which is why the Nissan Leaf in the iteration you have is almost certainly a very endangered species! A sustainable, affordable EV? That simply won't do )

 

[GRW]

You’ve made the right choice for your circumstances as have I.

I wouldn’t presume you to be either poor or super intelligent for making such a choice, not sure why you would think I would be stupid or wealthy for not making the same choice as yourself?

They are of course not going to be a top choice for someone looking for a sub £1000 workhorse but you are not comparing apples with apples there. I wouldn’t comment on a thread asking for advice on “what car can I get for £1000” and suggest a new ev. That would be madness.

I wasn't implying anything about you - I was offering a different opinion and supporting it with why I think so.

My main point though - is that I AM comparing "apples with apples". As stated, any new car doesn't actually fulfill its purpose as a mode of transport better than my old car - they do the same job.... its just mine does it for a fraction of the cost.
A car - is a car. Its transportation.
The difference - is the cost, not what they do.
Arguably, I could drive from Lands End to John O' Groats, more easily and in less time, requiring less detours and downtime, than you could in your EV.... using those metrics, my vehicle is objectively superior, for perhaps 30-50x less money.

 

[GRW]

Out of interest do you mean “getting from A to B in a given elapsed time”?

Not specifically, but (see above reply to @daleyd - its certainly a valid benchmark (though I'd say applies more over greater distances). Traffic, Scameras etc make ultimate machine performance metrics (top speed, acceleration etc) largely irrelevant - but downtime & detours to refuel have a marked impact.

Of course, the Remedial Parasitic Cockroaches that masquerade as Politicians are steadily hamstringing the usefulness of the genuinely "good" cars by restricting or charging draconian amounts for the city exclusion zones for those who need to live in or enter cities.

 

[daleyd]

I wasn't implying anything about you - I was offering a different opinion and supporting it with why I think so.

My main point though - is that I AM comparing "apples with apples". As stated, any new car doesn't actually fulfill its purpose as a mode of transport better than my old car - they do the same job.... its just mine does it for a fraction of the cost.
A car - is a car. Its transportation.
The difference - is the cost, not what they do.
Arguably, I could drive from Lands End to John O' Groats, more easily and in less time, requiring less detours and downtime, than you could in your EV.... using those metrics, my vehicle is objectively superior, for perhaps 30-50x less money.

Why even suggest that buying an ev is for the foolhardy or wealthy then? Or did you not say that?

Yes well done, you’ve bought a vehicle for you circumstances, which suits you perfectly and as you say, is objectively superior to my choice. I spend quite some time away from home and need a “new” (ish) vehicle to convey my wife and children around, ideally in comfort with some kind of warranty because I may or may not be around to sort things like fixing it because I am not there.

Now, I could, but I won’t, ask her to drive around in a 30 year old ford escort because of course that would do the job. But that’s not really going to happen. People buy new cars, and those cars will in time get passed down to other users. It’s the way of life and is the reason you get to drive around in your “superior vehicles”.

But it’s still not comparing apples with apples, whichever way you spin it.

 

[Smallfry]

Yes I know I was agreeing with you. When we wrote our list of reasons for not owning an ev there were quite a few, but being stuck on the road for 5 hours didn’t even cross our minds. I’ve been driving for 30 odd years, pretty much all of those well over 30-40k miles a year and it’s never happened.

I assume it’s been a thing in a newspaper at some point because when we got an ev it was one of the first things my father in law asked about.

When I asked him how often it happened to him in 60 years of driving he replied “well never”.

I used to do that sort of mileage too. I have had it happen to me three times that I can remember. Once the incident I quoted, another one, also on the M6 due to a fatal accident, and another on the M1 and M25 due to an incident at the Dartford crossing. This was in the late 90s, and was due to a jumper on the bridge.

Both of these were in the summer though, and there have been a fair few long hold ups of a couple of hours.

 

[minimutly]

My car is plugged in when I am at home, if the sun is out the solar panels are charging the car for free,
overnight I have a 4.5p per unit rate, the car will do 5.5 miles per kwh
I come out of the house each day to a fully charged car, do 80 or so miles a day, and repeat,
its a pain using a normal car where I have to wait for a pump to come free to refill,

“if the sun shines”
And how much is our government charging you per mile atm?
And how much did it cost you to feel so smug?
(Don’t take this the wrong way - any time you can afford to use our leader’s plans to your advantage you should use it...

 

[northwest]

ask her to drive around in a 30 year old ford escort

Who the hell can afford 30 year old Ford Escorts?

 

[GRW]

Why even suggest that buying an ev is for the foolhardy or wealthy then? Or did you not say that?

Yes well done, you’ve bought a vehicle for you circumstances, which suits you perfectly and as you say, is objectively superior to my choice. I spend quite some time away from home and need a “new” (ish) vehicle to convey my wife and children around, ideally in comfort with some kind of warranty because I may or may not be around to sort things like fixing it because I am not there.

Now, I could, but I won’t, ask her to drive around in a 30 year old ford escort because of course that would do the job. But that’s not really going to happen. People buy new cars, and those cars will in time get passed down to other users. It’s the way of life and is the reason you get to drive around in your “superior vehicles”.

But it’s still not comparing apples with apples, whichever way you spin it.

I'm sorry if I offended - it wasn't my intention.
What I said though, was that the expense of a new EV, with the risk factor of its ownership cost, was too big a gamble for many to take.
"The only gamble worth taking, is the one you can afford to lose".
Obviously, you can afford it, & are happy with your gamble.
I made a much smaller wager with my cheap "banger" & I'm happy with mine.

(I still think the odds favour my choice, in virtually all aspects btw, with me losing out on very little on what a new EV (or ICE) offers/provides in real terms - while making a much lower investment. I do wonder just how many miles you'd have to do in an EV versus my cars 36mpg before the break-even point was reached, and the (likely) 40k-ish extra Spend was recouped?)

My main problem - is that the newer used ICE & Hybrid/EV vehicles and their adoption, means that reliable, affordable used vehicles will become a thing of the past (as the risk factor/gamble stakes will skyrocket due to the built-in obsolescence & very high, hi-tech repair & mtce costs of a modern car).
My method of getting reasonable cosy transport... is being systematically eradicated.

 

[brewdexta]

On our 3rd EV, only had one small issue. Servicing is much cheaper than ICE. Most of the "unrepairable" comments are myths.

3rd party charging networks and apps can be an occasional issue but by and large, no problems if you sign up before you get to the charging station. It's a bit like people in a long queue at the supermarket suddenly realising they need to pay and their purse is at the bottom of their bag

Our latest Leaf has a heat pump for heating, so more economical. But, we never had an issue with the previous Leaf that didn't.

Infrastructure wise, yes, they should have spent all the dosh wasted on "smart" motorways on the sewerage and electrical infrastructure. But it's coping at the moment.

 

[addjunkie]

Ive considered going to one work horse, and one shopping trolley electric, and charge it on our holiday cottages….business cost you see! But Id not buy a used one out of warrenty. The Kia is what I was looking into seems sensible money and range.

At the weekend we had this conversation. The guy I was talking to can afford cash money what ever he wants and some…..But his current view Ill never own a car or pick up again. They will all be leased, his logic, I replace my pc every 2 to 3 years, as electronic jiggery pokery fails and rapidly goes out of date. Cars are now the same full of electronic jiggery pokery.

 

[bricol]

Who the hell can afford 30 year old Ford Escorts?

Couple of years ago when taking my 30 odd year old Lancia for MOT, and some clown also there for an MOT referenced "rust" - so I pointed out they rusted no worse, no better, than other cars of the same ilk - how many 30 yr old Escorts do you see in regular use?

When a 30 yr old Escort came in for MOT . . .

 

[bricol]

I wasn't implying anything about you - I was offering a different opinion and supporting it with why I think so.

My main point though - is that I AM comparing "apples with apples". As stated, any new car doesn't actually fulfill its purpose as a mode of transport better than my old car - they do the same job.... its just mine does it for a fraction of the cost.
A car - is a car. Its transportation.
The difference - is the cost, not what they do.
Arguably, I could drive from Lands End to John O' Groats, more easily and in less time, requiring less detours and downtime, than you could in your EV.... using those metrics, my vehicle is objectively superior, for perhaps 30-50x less money.

But a Moggy Minor would do the same job too . . .

And probably a Model T . . .

I run mostly older cars - and my 16 yr old Alfa, 30odd year old Lancia and Pug 106 are certainly not in the same league of comfort, performance and crash safety as a more modern equivalent. And while I maintain mine myself, for someone who simply treats a car as mobile white goods, ie get in, go . . . a modern car is way better than having to have an older car maintained, probably at more expense as there are fewer/no spares around, never mind keeping up with corrosion issues, failing seals etc. Peace of mind is worth a lot to some.

 

[bricol]

I'm an ICE enthusiast - but electric is coming.

I would suggest the current (ha!) issues with charging could be equated to the problems with availability of petrol for the early motorist - limited supplies in random places.

 

[aesmith]

For those who do longish journeys in their EVs, what sort of mileage do you get at motorway speeds? I seem to remember seeing that it drops quite a bit from the "combined" figure quoted by manufacturers.

 

[atomant48]

For those who do longish journeys in their EVs, what sort of mileage do you get at motorway speeds? I seem to remember seeing that it drops quite a bit from the "combined" figure quoted by manufacturers.

300 is achievable in my T. Like most cars (I suspect) fairly big difference between 60-70 and 75. Longest journey I would do on a regular basis is from home to the farm in Yorkshire - that’s 260 door to door. But folk shouldn’t be driving that far non-stop so a coffee stop half way to top up the battery makes it a stress free range !

 

[brewdexta]

For those who do longish journeys in their EVs, what sort of mileage do you get at motorway speeds? I seem to remember seeing that it drops quite a bit from the "combined" figure quoted by manufacturers.

The missus cruises around 70mph, when the M62 allows it, on her weekly commute to the other side of Leeds, it doesn't seem to impact her mileage much but we aren't really into comparing it to quoted figures. All I know is that she can do the trip and have over half a charge left, I think its a 90 mile round trip. So that would indicate somewhere around 200+ range and I think it's supposed to be 230 mile really world and 260 mile on a bowling green at 56mph