Adventures in an all electric vehicle.

[daleyd]

Who did the research (& esp. who funded it) are extremely important factors in any "Findings".
History is peppered with findings from surveys that were funded by parties where (Surprise!) the data "proves" exactly what is in the best interests of the funding party.

Insurance industry - is out for itself, so what they consider high risk, is pretty reliable.
E.g. if you have a house with an integral garage, your premium will be higher than a house without (or with a separate garage)..... because the data proves that the risk of fire/damage is greater with a "working area" & flammable as part of the home.

The Insurance Co - have determined that charging an EV.... is a Risk that is elevated to a point where they won't offer @Ubique Cover if he charges inside (day or night). That fact HAS to tell you something (I.e. that the seriousness of consequences makes indoor charging an unacceptable risk).

Most explosives are extremely sage and benign when stored & handled correctly. Good sense & good practice means you don't store them in your kitchen cupboards - as the result of a very unlikely event is too massive to warrant the risk!
Denial of the Insurance Co's Risk Assessment (& Exclusions) leaves an individual not only risking a fire that might wipe out his family (& neighbours) - but also (were he/she/it to survive) without Insurance & liable for all the damages.

I know what policy I'd be following.

Are electric car fires really that common? | The Car Expert

Spend time on social media and you'll read many stories about electric car fires. But do EVs really catch fire all the time or is it a myth?

www.thecarexpert.co.uk

The article quotes a few sources, all of which broadly agree. A quick google search brings up lots of different things along the same theme.

 

[willie.macleod]

The chart is vague enough that "LONDON: FIRES CAUSED BY ELECTRIC BATTERY (PAST 5 YEARS)" could include ICE vehicles with an electrical fault. Also, should a untested granny charger pulling 13A continuously from a poor quality socket be listed in a fire caused by an electric battery? Regardless of the car, you'd still have the same issue and it isn't the battery at fault or anything else within the manufacturers control. It would be good if the London fire brigade looked further into the root causes and reported on them - seems odd we have so many warnings about scooters and so little about the cars?

 

[Ubique]

...
Exactly the same with the “My company H&S” (from ubique above) means absolutely nothing in the grand scale of things. That is one isolated company decision. A decision which affects just one company. But, if I had a workshop with electric cars (under repair?) I would expect some risk assessment to be done - wouldn’t you?

It might be 'one company' but with a global spread of dealerships across many marques. The ban on indoor charging of BEV's is policy across all sites (I've checked) and also includes showrooms. I suspect it is more to do with the seriousness of a lithium fuelled fire compared to a ICE vehicle fire, in the same conditions. The comment above about 'unproductive space' is valid, except we have to diagnose charging issues outdoors now, and of course we cannot leave BEV's on charge overnight, indoors or out. The biggest hazard (according to the manufacturers) is during the removal of a defective battery pack, there is no PPE that will prevent burns from lithium once it is ignited.

 

[Ubique]

How is that relevant?- a concrete wall is the only real PPE that will keep you safe from a 3000degree Celcius fire spitting out bits of molten lithium. The rest of you post adds nothing.
Here's an 'old' event for consideration - would you charge a BEV (or two) in a garage that forms part of your house structure? Admittedly not a frequent occurrence, but if it's your house, it only needs to happen once.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/08/04/tesla-fire/

 

[daleyd]

How is that relevant?- a concrete wall is the only real PPE that will keep you safe from a 3000degree Celcius fire spitting out bits of molten lithium. The rest of you post adds nothing.
Here's an 'old' event for consideration - would you charge a BEV (or two) in a garage that forms part of your house structure? Admittedly not a frequent occurrence, but if it's your house, it only needs to happen once.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/08/04/tesla-fire/

Would the house have fared any better if there was 50l of petrol in there? Serious question.

I know it’s accepted that the fires are harder to put out in an ev but the overall heat output (I know it got waved away as irrelevant but several studies have seen fit to include it so to me it seems very relevant) is not much different, in fact maybe more in a petrol vehicle, with an ev likely to be slower to spread rather than it going up suddenly in the case of a fuel tank.

 

[m_c]

Even the PPE that gets used when working on high voltage switch gear in the likes of power stations where arc flash is a risk, doesn't prevent body damage.
Should arc flash happen, it doesn't provide that much protection, but it doesn't stick to your skin, like any common clothing would.

 

[m_c]

Would the house have fared any better if there was 50l of petrol in there? Serious question.

I know it’s accepted that the fires are harder to put out in an ev but the overall heat output (I know it got waved away as irrelevant but several studies have seen fit to include it so to me it seems very relevant) is not much different, in fact maybe more in a petrol vehicle, with an ev likely to be slower to spread rather than it going up suddenly in the case of a fuel tank.

Fuel tanks don't really go up suddenly, unless it's in a movie.
They'll mostly melt then the fuel will burn as it runs across the ground.

A Lithium battery in comparison, will burn very intensely, very quickly

 

[rhubarb7]

I see there's talk of not allowing EV's of any description on ferries..Imagine trying to put an EV fire out on a ferry!

 

[daleyd]

Fuel tanks don't really go up suddenly, unless it's in a movie.
They'll mostly melt then the fuel will burn as it runs across the ground.

A Lithium battery in comparison, will burn very intensely, very quickly

Fuel lines rupture and fuel then spreads though, and goes very quickly - which was in a report I stuck further up thread.

 

[Ubique]

I see there's talk of not allowing EV's of any description on ferries..Imagine trying to put an EV fire out on a ferry!

Easy, just open the sea cocks....

 

[Robotstar5]

I know it’s accepted that the fires are harder to put out in an ev but the overall heat output (I know it got waved away as irrelevant but several studies have seen fit to include it so to me it seems very relevant) is not much different, in fact maybe more in a petrol vehicle, with an ev likely to be slower to spread rather than it going up suddenly in the case of a fuel tank.

I was watching a fire service training evening on Monday and Lithium batteries came up, the chap said energy out was about the same as petrol, but the problem with battery fires is all the energy is concentrated as it comes out of a rupture hole instead of more spread out in a petrol fire.
The fire service current approach is lots of water and they have a working party looking at better solutions.

Gratuitous photo of the the crew checking BA before going into the building to deal with the "lithium fire"

 

[daleyd]

I was watching a fire service training evening on Monday and Lithium batteries came up, the chap said energy out was about the same as petrol, but the problem with battery fires is all the energy is concentrated as it comes out of a rupture hole instead of more spread out in a petrol fire.
The fire service current approach is lots of water and they have a working party looking at better solutions.

Gratuitous photo of the the crew checking BA before going into the building to deal with the "lithium fire"

View attachment 405729

That was the findings of the study done, I’ll try and find the link again.

It said the battery fires are more difficult to extinguish, but can be slower to spread (compared to fuel fire) and more localised - which may or may not be a bad thing depending on location. Once fuel leaks it then becomes easily spreadable - the multi story car park fire in Liverpool being a prime case where multiple floors went up from fuel leaking down drains and across floors writing off hundreds of cars.

 

[Robotstar5]

That was the findings of the study done, I’ll try and find the link again.

It said the battery fires are more difficult to extinguish, but can be slower to spread (compared to fuel fire) and more localised - which may or may not be a bad thing depending on location. Once fuel leaks it then becomes easily spreadable - the multi story car park fire in Liverpool being a prime case where multiple floors went up from fuel leaking down drains and across floors writing off hundreds of cars.

When was that?, I know Cheshire fire brigade commissioned at least one low profile appliance capable of working inside Runcorn shopping centre.

 

[daleyd]

When was that?, I know Cheshire fire brigade commissioned at least one low profile appliance capable of working inside Runcorn shopping centre.

View attachment 405731

Liverpool car park fire: Hundreds of burnt-out vehicles removed - BBC News

More than 1,000 vehicles were destroyed when the Liverpool car park was engulfed in flames.

www.bbc.co.uk

1000 cars, £20m…

 

[atomant48]

Here's an 'old' event for consideration - would you charge a BEV (or two) in a garage that forms part of your house structure? Admittedly not a frequent occurrence, but if it's your house, it only needs to happen once.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/08/04/tesla-fire/

I think it’s a fair question. If I were lucky enough to own a house with an adjoined garage big enough (it’s on my wish list !) I think i probably would. But it’s certainly something one should consider- and not really something you’d consider for a non EV I guess. But I have genuinely no concerns when charging mine (having read a bunch of info).

That said we have some good friends whose dishwasher caught fire one night while they were sleeping and gutted the kitchen. They all got out but they won’t use the dishwasher at night now. Apparently it’s quite a common fire. But it hasn’t changed us using it when we go to bed - so moral is I think as long as you understand the risks and make a reasoned decision that’s all we can do ?

 

[Ubique]

Dishwasher, washing machine etc. are only ever used when there is someone awake, years ago a good friend lost his three dogs and dozen or so caged birds to a house fire whilst he was at work due to a faulty appliance. The neighbours called the police initially because the dogs 'screaming' was annoying them....

 

[Ubique]

Liverpool car park fire: Hundreds of burnt-out vehicles removed - BBC News

More than 1,000 vehicles were destroyed when the Liverpool car park was engulfed in flames.

www.bbc.co.uk

1000 cars, £20m…

Liverpool. I wonder if all the owners knew they were in that car park?

 

[atomant48]

Dishwasher, washing machine etc. are only ever used when there is someone awake, years ago a good friend lost his three dogs and dozen or so caged birds to a house fire whilst he was at work due to a faulty appliance. The neighbours called the police initially because the dogs 'screaming' was annoying them....

Great example of your risk appetite is different to mine. The important thing is we’ve both thought about it.

 

[Ubique]

Apologies, the 3000deg. C. was a phone typo, should have read 2000deg. C. (mainly due to venturi effect increasing the exit temperature)
Here's a quote, encompassing your two favourite things, up-to-date and the BBC

E-bike fire every two days says London Fire Brigade

Flames from an e-bike or e-scooter fire can rip through a bedroom in 10 to 15 seconds, City Hall told.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Ubique]

Great example of your risk appetite is different to mine. The important thing is we’ve both thought about it.

My personal risk appetite is very different to the ones I'd want to expose my family, friends and pets to.