Adventures in an all electric vehicle.

[Ubique]

Well if you're going to quote, at least quote the whole paragraph to put it in context:-
"
Broadly speaking, the number of scooters that catch fire are much higher than other vehicles across Britain, however London’s figures change this ratio dramatically to electric cars being the primary culprit of fires, followed by bikes, vans, buses and motorbikes.


There are a few surprising vehicles that come up in the data again and again, such as mobility scooters, golf buggies, forklift trucks and hoverboards or Segways. In London, 19 buses have had to be extinguished in the capital but there were very few in other regions."
LONDON: FIRES CAUSED BY ELECTRIC BATTERY (PAST 5 YEARS)

If there had been a concerted campaign of arson against BEV's, I think someone would've noticed by now, even if you halve the numbers to account for possible arson (which could equally apply to every classification), it's still a lot of passenger car BEV's going up in flames. My company H&S rules stipulate that no BEV's are to be charged in the workshops, now I'm not privvy to their thinking or research prior to taking that decision, risk assessment is a main part of their remit though.

 

[willie.macleod]

@Ubique do you have any insights as to why electric cars in London are bursting into flames at a significantly greater rate than anywhere else in the UK? If it was a fundamental flaw with the vehicles I would expect to see similar percentages of vehicles compared to rest of country, the numbers may be higher but % I'd expect to be the same.

With regards to your companies risk assessment there are a number of hazards such as trailing leads, customers dodgy granny chargers, overloaded circuits, extension leads etc which could lead a H&S expert to implement a blanket ban on charging indoors in a large dealership.

 

[GRW]

My company H&S rules stipulate that no BEV's are to be charged in the workshops, now I'm not privvy to their thinking or research prior to taking that decision, risk assessment is a main part of their remit though.

The common legal term "Seriousness of Consequences" springs to mind reading that.

What precautions are deemed to be suitably responsible (and can ascribe, mitigate or remove blame/responsibility for an incident) - are judged based upon how much damage or harm is forseeable (in the event that whatever it is, happens).

Actuary types earn a small fortune for the Insurance Industry through assimilating data and crunching myriad calculations to establish Risk, and to extrapolate likely outcomes & of course the damage & cost. Insurance Co's being in it for the money of course, will exclude cover for specific activities, actions or event, that their detailed data and assessments deem to present too high a risk, with too high a cost.

Evidently, the seriousness of consequences of charging EV's inside the premises - is deemed too dangerous by the Insurance Co to include it in the scope of the policy.

I speculated (in this thread I think) that the Home Insurance market might in future exclude in-garage/indoor charging of EV's (& indeed scooters etc). It might not be obvious (& they won't broadcast the exclusion), but it'd be worth checking "the small print" if you own & EV & charge it indoors.

 

[GRW]

@Ubique do you have any insights as to why electric cars in London are bursting into flames at a significantly greater rate than anywhere else in the UK? If it was a fundamental flaw with the vehicles I would expect to see similar percentages of vehicles compared to rest of country, the numbers may be higher but % I'd expect to be the same.

Are the figures based on numbers only? Perhaps (its logical) London EV's are not just far greater a percentage of vehicles than the median (given the ULEZ & incomes etc hardly a surprise), but also doing a lot more journeys, a lot more stop/start, and being charged more frequently than the median?
Again logical conclusions, and would explain why more EV's go up than anywhere else.

 

[addjunkie]

@Ubique do you have any insights as to why electric cars in London are bursting into flames at a significantly greater rate than anywhere else in the UK? If it was a fundamental flaw with the vehicles I would expect to see similar percentages of vehicles compared to rest of country, the numbers may be higher but % I'd expect to be the same.

With regards to your companies risk assessment there are a number of hazards such as trailing leads, customers dodgy granny chargers, overloaded circuits, extension leads etc which could lead a H&S expert to implement a blanket ban on charging indoors in a large dealership.

I suspect numbers of electric cars are higher in London due to congestion charging.

Charging cars inside a commercial garage putting fire risk, trailing leads etc to one side….while the car is charging, your not working in it, so you in effect have non productive floor space with an overhead cost, makes complete sense to charge it outside in cheaper space and use inside side space to produce revenue.

 

[redlig]

The link I posted above does, if you can be bothered to scroll down, give a nice pie chart of vehicle type.
For those with limited attention span, here it is. (although it should be titled Percentage of fires by vehicle type).
View attachment 405602

Sorry but without the caviat of ,say, per 1000 vehicle type then the chart is meaningless. Or have I missed something?

 

[daleyd]

There was other research done that showed that the chance of a fire in an ev is actually significantly lower than an ice, with a hybrid being worst of all. I linked to it in an earlier post but I’m not going back to dig it out.

This was over a number of cars (i.e number of fires per 100,000 vehicles) so not simply figures that without any context are meaningless.

 

[GRW]

I suspect numbers of electric cars are higher in London due to congestion charging.

Charging cars inside a commercial garage putting fire risk, trailing leads etc to one side….while the car is charging, your not working in it, so you in effect have non productive floor space with an overhead cost, makes complete sense to charge it outside in cheaper space and use inside side space to produce revenue.

All sensible reasons.... but the profitability or efficient use of workspace aren't of concern to insurance Co. They assess Risk (& Consequence) & set their limits accordingly.

 

[daleyd]

All sensible reasons.... but the profitability or efficient use of workspace aren't of concern to insurance Co. They assess Risk (& Consequence) & set their limits accordingly.

No one mentioned insurance companies, only you…it was stated to be against their h&s policy, nothing to do with insurance.

 

[GRW]

There was other research done that showed that the chance of a fire in an ev is actually significantly lower than an ice, with a hybrid being worst of all. I linked to it in an earlier post but I’m not going back to dig it out.

This was over a number of cars (i.e number of fires per 100,000 vehicles) so not simply figures that without any context are meaningless.

Who did the research (& esp. who funded it) are extremely important factors in any "Findings".
History is peppered with findings from surveys that were funded by parties where (Surprise!) the data "proves" exactly what is in the best interests of the funding party.

Insurance industry - is out for itself, so what they consider high risk, is pretty reliable.
E.g. if you have a house with an integral garage, your premium will be higher than a house without (or with a separate garage)..... because the data proves that the risk of fire/damage is greater with a "working area" & flammable as part of the home.

The Insurance Co - have determined that charging an EV.... is a Risk that is elevated to a point where they won't offer @Ubique Cover if he charges inside (day or night). That fact HAS to tell you something (I.e. that the seriousness of consequences makes indoor charging an unacceptable risk).

Most explosives are extremely sage and benign when stored & handled correctly. Good sense & good practice means you don't store them in your kitchen cupboards - as the result of a very unlikely event is too massive to warrant the risk!
Denial of the Insurance Co's Risk Assessment (& Exclusions) leaves an individual not only risking a fire that might wipe out his family (& neighbours) - but also (were he/she/it to survive) without Insurance & liable for all the damages.

I know what policy I'd be following.

 

[cheb]

@Ubique do you have any insights as to why electric cars in London are bursting into flames at a significantly greater rate than anywhere else in the UK? If it was a fundamental flaw with the vehicles I would expect to see similar percentages of vehicles compared to rest of country, the numbers may be higher but % I'd expect to be the same.

With regards to your companies risk assessment there are a number of hazards such as trailing leads, customers dodgy granny chargers, overloaded circuits, extension leads etc which could lead a H&S expert to implement a blanket ban on charging indoors in a large dealership.

Are they evolving conciousness? When one is tired of London, one is tired of life.

 

[GRW]

No one mentioned insurance companies, only you…it was stated to be against their h&s policy, nothing to do with insurance.

OK. Does that mean it's not a valid decision/policy, and without sound reasons / grounds?

 

[daleyd]

OK. Does that mean it's not a valid decision/policy, and without sound reasons / grounds?

No, it just means you are reading things into it without knowing the full context, and insinuating it's an insurance issue when it isn't (Or rather might not be, we just don't know). Nothing more.

 

[daleyd]

Who did the research (& esp. who funded it) are extremely important factors in any "Findings".
History is peppered with findings from surveys that were funded by parties where (Surprise!) the data "proves" exactly what is in the best interests of the funding party.

Insurance industry - is out for itself, so what they consider high risk, is pretty reliable.
E.g. if you have a house with an integral garage, your premium will be higher than a house without (or with a separate garage)..... because the data proves that the risk of fire/damage is greater with a "working area" & flammable as part of the home.

The Insurance Co - have determined that charging an EV.... is a Risk that is elevated to a point where they won't offer @Ubique Cover if he charges inside (day or night). That fact HAS to tell you something (I.e. that the seriousness of consequences makes indoor charging an unacceptable risk).

Most explosives are extremely sage and benign when stored & handled correctly. Good sense & good practice means you don't store them in your kitchen cupboards - as the result of a very unlikely event is too massive to warrant the risk!
Denial of the Insurance Co's Risk Assessment (& Exclusions) leaves an individual not only risking a fire that might wipe out his family (& neighbours) - but also (were he/she/it to survive) without Insurance & liable for all the damages.

I know what policy I'd be following.

Are electric car fires really that common? | The Car Expert

Spend time on social media and you'll read many stories about electric car fires. But do EVs really catch fire all the time or is it a myth?

www.thecarexpert.co.uk

The article quotes a few sources, all of which broadly agree. A quick google search brings up lots of different things along the same theme.

 

[not done it yet]

Sorry but without the caviat of ,say, per 1000 vehicle type then the chart is meaningless. Or have I missed something?

That pie chart shows nothing about trends. 5 years ago is a long time. Not saying it was, but it could be that 90% of car fires were back then and very few now, while 90% of the electric bike fires could have occurred in the last year. People don’t understand statistics and only read into them what they think it is or should be. Get my point?

Exactly the same with the “My company H&S” (from ubique above) means absolutely nothing in the grand scale of things. That is one isolated company decision. A decision which affects just one company. But, if I had a workshop with electric cars (under repair?) I would expect some risk assessment to be done - wouldn’t you?

 

[willie.macleod]

The chart is vague enough that "LONDON: FIRES CAUSED BY ELECTRIC BATTERY (PAST 5 YEARS)" could include ICE vehicles with an electrical fault. Also, should a untested granny charger pulling 13A continuously from a poor quality socket be listed in a fire caused by an electric battery? Regardless of the car, you'd still have the same issue and it isn't the battery at fault or anything else within the manufacturers control. It would be good if the London fire brigade looked further into the root causes and reported on them - seems odd we have so many warnings about scooters and so little about the cars?

 

[Ubique]

...
Exactly the same with the “My company H&S” (from ubique above) means absolutely nothing in the grand scale of things. That is one isolated company decision. A decision which affects just one company. But, if I had a workshop with electric cars (under repair?) I would expect some risk assessment to be done - wouldn’t you?

It might be 'one company' but with a global spread of dealerships across many marques. The ban on indoor charging of BEV's is policy across all sites (I've checked) and also includes showrooms. I suspect it is more to do with the seriousness of a lithium fuelled fire compared to a ICE vehicle fire, in the same conditions. The comment above about 'unproductive space' is valid, except we have to diagnose charging issues outdoors now, and of course we cannot leave BEV's on charge overnight, indoors or out. The biggest hazard (according to the manufacturers) is during the removal of a defective battery pack, there is no PPE that will prevent burns from lithium once it is ignited.

 

[not done it yet]

there is no PPE that will prevent burns from lithium once it is ignited.

Not true, of course, as there is - but just not practical/necessary to work in it for these activities.

I used to wear, at times, ppe to guard against any accidental discharge stream of powder (at 930 degrees Celsius). One such accidental ‘flow’ actually destroyed wiring, at a distance of well over ten metres (and about the same height), when about a tonne (or so) of hot powder escaped, as a stream, from a 6” outlet. The ppe was not easy to work in, but safe. A colleague broke his ankle when jumping out of the way of a lesser escape.

The high pressure water lance (4gpm @ 4000psi, IIRC), which was operated while wearing the PPE, was also something else to contend with. The recoil, while straight-jetting, was very considerable. A blockage in one nozzle, when using a Tee-piece, created a high torque situation, too!

 

[Ubique]

How is that relevant?- a concrete wall is the only real PPE that will keep you safe from a 3000degree Celcius fire spitting out bits of molten lithium. The rest of you post adds nothing.
Here's an 'old' event for consideration - would you charge a BEV (or two) in a garage that forms part of your house structure? Admittedly not a frequent occurrence, but if it's your house, it only needs to happen once.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/08/04/tesla-fire/

 

[daleyd]

How is that relevant?- a concrete wall is the only real PPE that will keep you safe from a 3000degree Celcius fire spitting out bits of molten lithium. The rest of you post adds nothing.
Here's an 'old' event for consideration - would you charge a BEV (or two) in a garage that forms part of your house structure? Admittedly not a frequent occurrence, but if it's your house, it only needs to happen once.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/08/04/tesla-fire/

Would the house have fared any better if there was 50l of petrol in there? Serious question.

I know it’s accepted that the fires are harder to put out in an ev but the overall heat output (I know it got waved away as irrelevant but several studies have seen fit to include it so to me it seems very relevant) is not much different, in fact maybe more in a petrol vehicle, with an ev likely to be slower to spread rather than it going up suddenly in the case of a fuel tank.