CE Marking / BS EN 1090

[matt1978]

Sorry I misread, the synergic programmes inside the machine are based around a 8%Co2 and a 18%Co2 for Pulse on Steel.(No Oxy) There is also a 100%Co2 line for standard mig and SpeedRoot

 

[backpurge]

Cheers Matt, you've already answered what was going to be my next question regarding the pre approved WPS programmes, do you have any plans on getting these re approved around UK mixes.

 

[matt1978]

I don't think so due to the costs involved and also I don't think it's necessary.

The Arc length adjustment allows the synergic line to be finely trimmed to suit any gas mix and regarding the WPS I don't think it makes a huge diff to the settings if it has 2% Oxy or not.

Unless your on the Bulk silo's and mix your own then I know for sure that the gas tolerances in the pre mixed stuff is quite wide and varied. I guess that's the problem with mixed gases for mig, there is not a standard in place across Europe.

Even in our country, BOC has 5% for the light mix and AP has 7%. BOC has 12% for Universal and AP has 15. You can also buy AP 80/20 mix with not Oxy in it at all.

Maybe I might be wrong but I don't think it's an issue with the WPS because if a company worked with AP when all the WPS was written does that mean he can't ever go to Air Liquide or BOC in the future because if he did it would mean that he has to re-write and qualify all the procedures? I think it's enough just to say Ar/Co2 mix as is the case with the wire. it goes on the spec but not the brand(although you can name the brand but spec is always the overriding factor) but again maybe i am wrong

What do you think?

 

[nickk]

this sounds a potential 'problem' for me -i would be willing to go along with certs' but as i'm such a small company doing a variety of work, not always structural,it sounds expensive & time consuming,with the possibility that if industry & gov' bodies arent prepared adequately there could be a last minute ill prepared rush ,bringing with it other associated problems.i'd like to know more so will listen further & do some research.glad its been raised.

 

[matt1978]

What do you mean Nick? The whole EN1090 thing?

 

[Welderpaul]

I've no real idea of the costs for complying with 1090, and the ongoing costs of compliance.

The extent of 1090 is quite far reaching, the 'lowest' category; EXC1 covers things like cattle feeders etc; something I would never class as 'structural steel'.

You need to make the choice really, either comply or it becomes illegal to sell a product that is not CE marked.

 

[madkayaker]

The local outfit we use were getting assessment visit on Friday. That explains why four lads lad to modify a tank access platform

 

[nickk]

What do you mean Nick? The whole EN1090 thing?

not sure,i would imagine i'd be categorised beyond exc1 as i fab things for public & private buildings.

 

[matt1978]

Who ever designs the building has to specify what the exc class is for each component. If no exc class is designated then it has to be assumed its exc 2.

 

[matt1978]

You'd be best off going for exc 2 as they recon majority of buildings made in UK will fall into this category

 

[nickk]

my structural steel is usually installed in existing buildings listed often.

 

[matt1978]

Do you have to design the items yourself or fabricate them from drawings issued from your client? The ownus would be on whoever did the drawing/design.

If its mainly balaustrading etc in existing buildings i think it will prob be exc 2.

The main difference between 1 and 2 is the fact of whether its something primarily used by humans or by animals.

 

[nickk]

its a mixture,& sometimes just a repair plate or additional steel to strengthen.

 

[matt1978]

I would suggest you speak to a consultant who specialises in EN 1090 compliance but I think it's more likely to be exc 2 but as I said the exc class will be defined by the client issuing the design/drawing.

I really don't know what the effect will be on a pre existing non CE marked buildings, that will have adaptions/modifications after 01/07/14 when it becomes law for all load bearing struc steel to be CE Marked.

 

[backpurge]

I don't think so due to the costs involved and also I don't think it's necessary.

The Arc length adjustment allows the synergic line to be finely trimmed to suit any gas mix and regarding the WPS I don't think it makes a huge diff to the settings if it has 2% Oxy or not.

Unless your on the Bulk silo's and mix your own then I know for sure that the gas tolerances in the pre mixed stuff is quite wide and varied. I guess that's the problem with mixed gases for mig, there is not a standard in place across Europe.

Even in our country, BOC has 5% for the light mix and AP has 7%. BOC has 12% for Universal and AP has 15. You can also buy AP 80/20 mix with not Oxy in it at all.

Maybe I might be wrong but I don't think it's an issue with the WPS because if a company worked with AP when all the WPS was written does that mean he can't ever go to Air Liquide or BOC in the future because if he did it would mean that he has to re-write and qualify all the procedures? I think it's enough just to say Ar/Co2 mix as is the case with the wire. it goes on the spec but not the brand(although you can name the brand but spec is always the overriding factor) but again maybe i am wrong

What do you think?

Matt, after having a look into things, albeit fairly briefly, it is ending up a right can of worms, here is my take on things

In the majority of cases an approved weld procedure will need to be in place and as such attention will be made to shielding gas selection

Shielding gases have to comply with EN 14175 which place quite tight tolerances on the accuracy of mix, nominal concentrations of above 5% are allowed +/- 10% of the nominal, nominal concentrations of 1 to 5% are allowed +/- 0.5% of the absolute and compenents below 1% are not covered by EN 14175.
To try and explain in laymans terms, a 20% CO2 in Ar mix can have a varying CO2 content between 18% and 22% whereas a 2% CO2 in Ar mix can vary between 1.5% and 2.5% CO2 content, so as you see there are quite tight limits on shielding gas production.

When you look at shielding gases with relation to weld procedure development, if a procedure has been developed using a 20%CO2 in Ar mix just because this is a M21 mix doesn't mean you can use any M21 mix (15 to 25% CO2) on production welds, the standard states you have to use the same nominal mix ie 18 to 22% CO2 content

So if someone is using pre qualified procedures that have been qualified using a 20% CO2 in Ar mix, they have to stick with that gas mix and cannot change to "Argoshield" mixtures without having to re qualify their weld procedures as they are totally different gases regardless of the fact the change in gas mix will actually have little effect on welding parameters

 

[matt1978]

Hi BP,

Thanks for the Info. Your right it is a can of worms isn't it.

The Gas used on our WPS was a 82% Ar and 18% Co2. The manufacturer was Praxair and the brand name, Stargon C18.

Forgetting about the Lorch WPS for a moment, as we speak I know that EWM, Fronius and Migatronic also has standard WPS available along with there machines. So one would assume that they all used the standard (around 20%) equivilient gas mix in the respective country where the procudures were qualified/welded.

Maybe something like this falls under Non-Essential supplimentary variables?

Maybe something like this falls to the descression of the Notified Body who will be carrying out the Audit? I know of one very large Struc Steel Fabricator who already has EN 1090 Compliance up to EXC 3. The Certificate has been awarded already.

He wrote and qualified his own WPS, but what I meant by descrestion on the Auditor comes from the need for all of the machines used to be Calibrated.

But from the EN 1090 specs, via EN 3834 you can find that BS EN 50504 as the standard from Validation of Arc welding equipment. Now to work to this spec requires some pretty specialist equipment in order to fully comply with BS EN 50504, its not just a case of putting the unit on a static load bank and checking as is the case with most Calibrations.

All of the machines used with this clients production have all been calibrated, but they have not been calibrated in accordance to BS EN 50504. Does this mean that he shouldn't of passed the Audit or does it mean that the Auditor is allowed discrestion?

One thing for sure is that we (Lorch) are not advocating that anyone should buy one of our machines just for the reason that they get the WPS booklet. Each compatable machine comes with Specialist 'Speed' software that allows faster welding compared to normal process but with the additional benefit of increased penetration, less Spatter etc. These are the reasons to buy, not just because of the WPS Booklet.

 

[backpurge]

Wish I was working as a freelance RWC, the weekend in Bridlington would be getting swapped for a fortnight in Barbados.

Give Bob my regards next time you see him, we go back a long way

 

[Welderpaul]

So just 48 firms have got accreditation so far
I could really do with finding a firm who can just sort it all for us.

 

[matt1978]

I would get the TWI appointed as a notified body ASAP if you can Paul, they will, come and do a gap analysis of where your at the the moment and what you need to get in place prior to an audit, then you can give that fella Andy a call and he will come and help you put everything in place then you can be audited.

i could be wrong buy I don't think there is a company who helps put all the procedures in place etc aswell as being the notified body. Maybe something to do with conflict of interests

 

[Welderpaul]

Right, ta. Gaps a-plenty.