CE Marking / BS EN 1090

[denlow60]

Matt, after having a look into things, albeit fairly briefly, it is ending up a right can of worms, here is my take on things

In the majority of cases an approved weld procedure will need to be in place and as such attention will be made to shielding gas selection

Shielding gases have to comply with EN 14175 which place quite tight tolerances on the accuracy of mix, nominal concentrations of above 5% are allowed +/- 10% of the nominal, nominal concentrations of 1 to 5% are allowed +/- 0.5% of the absolute and compenents below 1% are not covered by EN 14175.
To try and explain in laymans terms, a 20% CO2 in Ar mix can have a varying CO2 content between 18% and 22% whereas a 2% CO2 in Ar mix can vary between 1.5% and 2.5% CO2 content, so as you see there are quite tight limits on shielding gas production.

When you look at shielding gases with relation to weld procedure development, if a procedure has been developed using a 20%CO2 in Ar mix just because this is a M21 mix doesn't mean you can use any M21 mix (15 to 25% CO2) on production welds, the standard states you have to use the same nominal mix ie 18 to 22% CO2 content

So if someone is using pre qualified procedures that have been qualified using a 20% CO2 in Ar mix, they have to stick with that gas mix and cannot change to "Argoshield" mixtures without having to re qualify their weld procedures as they are totally different gases regardless of the fact the change in gas mix will actually have little effect on welding parameters

I would like to say something about WPS and gas consumption .
if on your wps is writing that you should welding, with M21 , this also means that with any type of gas that falls in M21 you can weld.

 

[denlow60]

I have here a list of gases :

 

[denlow60]

This is a new item as the previous one is unclear

 

[matt1978]

Yes but the discussion is whether the Pre-Qualified Procedures that Lorch and other manufacturers have done for the UK market are valid to the letter of the law, this is because all of the pre-qualified proceedures have been done using the European standard mix of 18% Co2, Balance Argon. But this is only a 2 componant mix. In the UK the most common mixtures for welding Steel also include 2% Oxygen.

So its not so much an issue about the difference of the Co2 content, its a difference that the European mixtures are only 2 componant mixtures and the UK uses 3 componant mixtures.

 

[backpurge]

I would like to say something about WPS and gas consumption .
if on your wps is writing that you should welding, with M21 , this also means that with any type of gas that falls in M21 you can weld.

Depends on who witnesses your procedure approval tests, have been told by 2 separate certification bodies that they now put the exact gas mixture onto the documentation i.e. for a 10% CO2 in argon mix they would put M20-ArC-10, this means you can only vary your gas mix between 9% and 11% CO2 content

 

[denlow60]

Yes but the discussion is whether the Pre-Qualified Procedures that Lorch and other manufacturers have done for the UK market are valid to the letter of the law, this is because all of the pre-qualified proceedures have been done using the European standard mix of 18% Co2, Balance Argon. But this is only a 2 componant mix. In the UK the most common mixtures for welding Steel also include 2% Oxygen.

So its not so much an issue about the difference of the Co2 content, its a difference that the European mixtures are only 2 componant mixtures and the UK uses 3 componant mixtures.

BS EN ISO 15614-1:2004+A1:2008

8.5.2.1 The qualification given to the shielding gas is restricted to the symbol of the gas according. to
A1 ISO 14175 A1 . However, the content of CO2 shall not exceed 10 % of that used to qualify the procedure test.
Shielding gases not covered by A1 ISO 14175 A1 are restricted to the nominal composition used in the test.

 

[matt1978]

Yes I get that but, but what about the O2 value in a UK 3 component mix against a European standard 2 component mix where there is no Oxygen at all?

 

[denlow60]

Yes I get that but, but what about the O2 value in a UK 3 component mix against a European standard 2 component mix where there is no Oxygen at all?

Shielding gases not covered by A1 ISO 14175 A1 are restricted to the nominal composition used in the test.

 

[matt1978]

Yes that's what I am saying, the tests for the pre qualified were done with 18% Co2 82% Ar and absolutely no Oxygen.

The shielding gases that we want to use them on in the UK such as Air Products Ferromax 15 or BOC Argoshield Universal have Ar/Co2/O.

I am fully aware that this addition of 2% Oxygen in the UK mixes does not have any detrimental effect to the weld nor will it make a huge difference to the parameters used BUT the information we are slowly gathering is that the companies who carry out the EN 1090 audits will not allow pre qualified procedures that have been made on a European 2 component mixture IF the fabrication company is using a 3 component mix.

This leaves two choices, either re-qualify the procedures using a 3 component mix OR explain that the procedures are only valid for Oxygen free mixtures (which the two major gas companies can provide in the UK anyway)

 

[backpurge]

Shielding gases not covered by A1 ISO 14175 A1 are restricted to the nominal composition used in the test.

The 3 component mixes Matt is talking about are covered by 14175, that is not what he is querying with you

 

[denlow60]

Yes that's what I am saying, the tests for the pre qualified were done with 18% Co2 82% Ar and absolutely no Oxygen.

The shielding gases that we want to use them on in the UK such as Air Products Ferromax 15 or BOC Argoshield Universal have Ar/Co2/O.

I am fully aware that this addition of 2% Oxygen in the UK mixes does not have any detrimental effect to the weld nor will it make a huge difference to the parameters used BUT the information we are slowly gathering is that the companies who carry out the EN 1090 audits will not allow pre qualified procedures that have been made on a European 2 component mixture IF the fabrication company is using a 3 component mix.

This leaves two choices, either re-qualify the procedures using a 3 component mix OR explain that the procedures are only valid for Oxygen free mixtures (which the two major gas companies can provide in the UK anyway)

The WPQR covers not the gas that you want to use, so there must be another new pWPS created with the appropriate gas.
and here you can get the good wps out.

 

[AarontheWelder]

Are these new rules going to apply to all steel structures? Such as gates?

 

[matt1978]

No it only relates to load bearing structural steel afaik.

Split into 4 categories/execution classes.

 

[denlow60]

Are these new rules going to apply to all steel structures? Such as gates?

In the Netherlands steel constructs need to be delivered according to CE standards starting from July 2014 ( I don't know when this will aply in the UK). This means that every weldbusiness needs to be certified according to the EN 1090 and that they need integrated qualitysystems (the last one doesn't need certification).

so this means yes

 

[denlow60]

No it only relates to load bearing structural steel afaik.

Split into 4 categories/execution classes.

Fences and BBQ are not included, but a balcony railing is covered by CE marking

 

[denlow60]

I've no real idea of the costs for complying with 1090, and the ongoing costs of compliance.

The extent of 1090 is quite far reaching, the 'lowest' category; EXC1 covers things like cattle feeders etc; something I would never class as 'structural steel'.

You need to make the choice really, either comply or it becomes illegal to sell a product that is not CE marked.

for EXC1 you do not need CE Marked and this is not belong under certification work

 

[Welderpaul]

I note with interest that 1090 is now included within structural steelwork specifications.

Got to get it sorted

 

[nickk]

have just contacted RIDBA today their man -tony hutchinson was most helpful &sympathetic,told me to go on ridba.org.uk for further info &possible financial help for small buisnesses via MAS.

 

[Welderpaul]

Mas?

 

[nickk]

Mas?

sorry cant remember!!it was a long & detailed phone call! try it in google.