CE Marking / BS EN 1090

[norlander]

matt1978-thanks for reply on the mig for fab-I was at my local pro welding supplies today and saw some of the advanced mig machines and the welds they are capable of.
Re Penfolds post on CE marking, I think there are 2 possible issues- 1 is counterfeit kit I understand its made on a ghost shift when there are no QA people about. 2 is-and this needs qualifying by someone with more knowledge than me-is that from my interpretation of this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking CE marked goods could be made anywhere quote -or they were manufactured in other nations which have EEA as a prime market.
When I mentioned that electrodes/steel/fasteners etc were marked BS I think that was more by default then intent-I don't think you could buy dodgy steel etc back then even if you wanted to AFAIK?.

 

[TechnicAl]

Just a comment on the gas mix. To me 80Ar 20 CO2 and 80Ar 18CO2 2 Oxygen are the same. I was taught that 1 Oxy equals aboit 3 CO2. Metallurgically the results will be as near as dammit.
But, Im old school and these days there seems to be limits on criteria that are really unimportant

Im currently working on producing low Hydrogen Nickel Alloy..........Why.......because the people who specify dont know what theyre doing.............As a result we have to come up with an answer.............Hydrogen will not and never has caused any cracking in nickel alloys

 

[penfold]

Im currently working on producing low Hydrogen Nickel Alloy..........Why.......because the people who specify dont know what theyre doing.............As a result we have to come up with an answer.............Hydrogen will not and never has caused any cracking in nickel alloys

People who specify materials for what are effectively religious reasons should be obliged to to tithe their wages to pay for the extra wasted time and money; a pet hate of mine.

me - "Why have you specified tempered unobtanium with heluminium oxide plating? Dead mild steel or at most EN8 would do the job. The budget has just increased by a factor of 50; who signed off on this nonsense?"

drone - "The alternative equipment supplied previously was made out of unobtanium; we thought it was important."

me - "That equipment was originally made to resist nuclear blast, EMP pulses and abuse from squaddies in the depths of the cold war by people who had no accountants looking over their shoulders. Go away and stop bothering me."

 

[TechnicAl]

The problem is that the cost of the welding consumables is insignificant. We have been told we can charge whatever we want...it doesnt matter. What matters is the quality and the service. In the Oil and Gas business the equipment (such as a ship with one specific purpose) and the overheads/wages are so massive everything else pails into insignificance.

Therefore no-one can afford to make a mistake. So they tend to over egg the pudding but at the same time make it difficult for themselves.

 

[dannyp]

People who specify materials for what are effectively religious reasons should be obliged to to tithe their wages to pay for the extra wasted time and money; a pet hate of mine.

me - "Why have you specified tempered unobtanium with heluminium oxide plating? Dead mild steel or at most EN8 would do the job. The budget has just increased by a factor of 50; who signed off on this nonsense?"

drone - "The alternative equipment supplied previously was made out of unobtanium; we thought it was important."

me - "That equipment was originally made to resist nuclear blast, EMP pulses and abuse from squaddies in the depths of the cold war by people who had no accountants looking over their shoulders. Go away and stop bothering me."

these people are also a pet hate of mine, they are effectivly proveing that they are unqualifyed for the job and incapable of doing it right. i get the feeling sometimems that they see unobtanium mentioned on the internet as the best thing ever therefore spec it. a bit like archetects with steels i think half of them are incapable of doing load calculations properly, so stick it in the computer as being a point load in the center obviously takeing a very genourus guess at the weight and doubeling it for good measure, then pick a bea two sizes up from what it spits out just to make sure. quite a few times been looking at drawings thinking WTF

 

[Welderpaul]

these people are also a pet hate of mine, they are effectivly proveing that they are unqualifyed for the job and incapable of doing it right. i get the feeling sometimems that they see unobtanium mentioned on the internet as the best thing ever therefore spec it. a bit like archetects with steels i think half of them are incapable of doing load calculations properly, so stick it in the computer as being a point load in the center obviously takeing a very genourus guess at the weight and doubeling it for good measure, then pick a bea two sizes up from what it spits out just to make sure. quite a few times been looking at drawings thinking WTF

Architects don't specify sizes of structural members - Structural Engineers do.
Very often find section is over-specified...when your profit is based on a mark up on costs, the bigger the better

 

[dannyp]

very true, but it's wrong really. more often the not i think the useign overkill for good measure actualy causes more problems, esp retro fit into houses.

 

[Hitch]

I did a biggish shed a few years ago, all main structure endplates were 50mm thick, base plates, eaves, ridge. Cost of the extra material, handling and drilling must have far outweighed the cost of doing the calculations properly .


With regards to recording consumables, we have started booking wire in and out now, but there has been no mention of gas, surely this needs to be recorded just as the wire is? Brand, mixture, batch number, which machine it as been put on and when...?

 

[TechnicAl]

I did a biggish shed a few years ago, all main structure endplates were 50mm thick, base plates, eaves, ridge. Cost of the extra material, handling and drilling must have far outweighed the cost of doing the calculations properly .


With regards to recording consumables, we have started booking wire in and out now, but there has been no mention of gas, surely this needs to be recorded just as the wire is? Brand, mixture, batch number, which machine it as been put on and when...?

Gas often gets forgotten. Obviously its important and like you say needs to be recorded

Whenever you do these things use the grade as the first description. For wire use ER70S-6 and then the brand name. That way if you cange the brand you dont need to reprocedure (not always anyway)

 

[Fastfingaz]

Here In the USA they're implementing something called ISO 9001 sounds simialar,,, brand new set of standards??

 

[TechnicAl]

Here In the USA they're implementing something called ISO 9001 sounds simialar,,, brand new set of standards??

We have been using that since the early 80s. It wasnt called that then but basically the same thing.
What we are discussing is different

 

[penfold]

We have been using that since the early 80s. It wasnt called that then but basically the same thing.
What we are discussing is different

ISO 9000 'twas called BS5750 in the olden days.

 

[Lawnmowerboy]

AFAIK iso9001 is for mainly environmental damage and control mostly. The quality side is only one of the 9 factors.

 

[madkayaker]

ISO 9002 is environmental protection

 

[norlander]

Architects don't specify sizes of structural members - Structural Engineers do.
Very often find section is over-specified...when your profit is based on a mark up on costs, the bigger the better

Overspec maybe due to designing in factors against overloading and change of use in some cases plus metrological factors in some locations-ie a belts and braces approach??. Thats a guess though-don't know of any facts on that one.

 

[TechnicAl]

ISO 9000 'twas called BS5750 in the olden days.

and DEF-STAN 05/24 before that

 

[snowcat]

Now the regulation seems to imply that single or one off items are exempt, So where does the line stop and start between a production piece and a one off or prototype. very few frames are essentially the same so are these classed as one offs and except?

Also I wonder how in the real world trading standards will ever police it, Iv seen similar regs come in Refrigerant gas being one that although its illigal to use and buy without a handling certificate and has been for over 10 years, It has never been enforced.

 

[TechnicAl]

No-one ever really enforces as such. Usually its Insurance that forces the issue. They wont insure something that hasnt got the correct paperwork etc. H&S is the same, the HSE dont really police it until it goes wrong. Its the insurance companies who dont want claims.........or want to avoid claims.

 

[snowcat]

that was my assumption, the same as pressure vessels, lifting equipment, power stations, shipping etc, TBH then its already enforced as I know of certain insurance company's that are already insisting on standards with regards to buildings, or in actual fact have been for years.

Again these standards are fine, but paper trails are massively open to abuse if there never properly enforced, Iv lost count of the times when Russian crews can suddenly turn M/S into shipping grade plate with certs, or "moved" a water side repair into a non critical part on the Log... It enforces the honest and that's all.

Maybe a Voluntary initiative would have been better, where a membership is "voluntary" however it has an insurable merit on the shops production techniques. Iv know these to work well else-ware.

 

[TechnicAl]

As with all of these initiatives, it needs a catastrophe to highlight the consequences of bypassing the rules.

After the leak in the Gulf of Mexico, and BPs billions of dollars payout, the rules in this industry have now gone the other way.

To be honest, "re-classification" of MS plate has been going on for years and providing its tested correctly and it meets the requirements its an acceptable practice. How it can be cheaper is a bit of a mystery though....testing isnt cheap. Its falsification that causes the problems.