- Thread starter matt1978
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As part of the approved factory process, are regulators supposed to have a calibration certificate?
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To show that they are actually delivering the flow rate they say they are
matt1978
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Yes a lot that gets forgotten is that the WPS will only stand for something on the assumption that the welder performing the task has a good idea what he is doing and can successfully critique his own welds afterwards. The welder himself should be the start of the post weld quality control/inspection
JRSolutions_82
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Wow this is all a bit bemusing, I have been doing light fab work as a self employed individual for the last 3 years. The amount of fab work that I do has been increasing at an exponential rate in the last 9 months or so. Now most of this has been for a particular company but now I am getting more jobs of my own I have decided to really push this side of my business. Now reading this thread has me thinking that unless I get certified I will be out of work in six months or if I get certified I will have put myself into a very strong position as far as being able to be get work. What would the first steps for me to take ? Is it even possible for a person who is self employed to become certified ? is certified the right word? This site is a godsend!
dan.taylor.1
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I'm going to lose a few jobs through this too mate, the odd railing that's to stop falls and not just for show or round a garden. Also not worth the expense of me buying a new welder that's suitable as I doubt my old set is!
Would be interesting to know how much cost is involved for a one man band tbh, my local steel supplier has just started advertising they are linked with a certification co.
Dan
Would be interesting to know how much cost is involved for a one man band tbh, my local steel supplier has just started advertising they are linked with a certification co.
Dan
matt1978
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The cost has relatively little to do with whether you are a sole trader or employ 250 people. The cost comes from what exc class you want/need and how far away you currently are from fulfilling those requirements. The TWI certification ltd (the biggest notified body regarding en1090 in the UK) charge a rate of Around £595 per day and average requirement is 5-6 days spread over 3-4 months providing your not starting from complete scratch for exc 2.
If your a jobbing welder/blacksmith and your asked to fabricate a I beam or simerla by a builder for a particular Job then you would be exempt from en 1090 as it's a one off and providing it met local planning/building authority inspections it would be ok. However if you offer fabrication of structural steel work as part of your business in a general sense to anyone and everyone then you will need to be en 1090 compliant. Most cases in the UK will fall under exc 2 and for that you need qualified welding procedures in place and as a welder need to be coded to en 287-1. You need a FPC in place which details the everyday running of your fabrication business from when stock comes in as raw material to when it goes out as a finished article and also need to have some sort of responsible named person regarding the quality/traceability of the welding operations. That can all be done by the same person if you are a sole trader. Part or the compliance is the calibration of the welding equipment and that depends on the type of job your welding. For example if your working on high strength steels (355 etc) where heat input is important then your kit would need to be calibrated within 2% tolerances but if heat input is not critical as is the case with 255 and below then a range of 10% is ok as far as I understand it.
It's not a case of saying that everything you've done up until now is rubbish it's just a case of demonstrating how what you do complies. Don't be scared of it, just give them a call and they can Answer all and any questions you may have.
If your a jobbing welder/blacksmith and your asked to fabricate a I beam or simerla by a builder for a particular Job then you would be exempt from en 1090 as it's a one off and providing it met local planning/building authority inspections it would be ok. However if you offer fabrication of structural steel work as part of your business in a general sense to anyone and everyone then you will need to be en 1090 compliant. Most cases in the UK will fall under exc 2 and for that you need qualified welding procedures in place and as a welder need to be coded to en 287-1. You need a FPC in place which details the everyday running of your fabrication business from when stock comes in as raw material to when it goes out as a finished article and also need to have some sort of responsible named person regarding the quality/traceability of the welding operations. That can all be done by the same person if you are a sole trader. Part or the compliance is the calibration of the welding equipment and that depends on the type of job your welding. For example if your working on high strength steels (355 etc) where heat input is important then your kit would need to be calibrated within 2% tolerances but if heat input is not critical as is the case with 255 and below then a range of 10% is ok as far as I understand it.
It's not a case of saying that everything you've done up until now is rubbish it's just a case of demonstrating how what you do complies. Don't be scared of it, just give them a call and they can Answer all and any questions you may have.
i see the issues that people are worryed about and tbh i'm getting concirned about tem to, think this may well end up been time for me to jump ship, as i'm basicly self empolyed an subed in to various places it works out as bit of a **** deal for me anyway but at least it was work.
choice looks simple from here atm ether level up or get out as i can see the money falling out the job
choice looks simple from here atm ether level up or get out as i can see the money falling out the job
madkayaker
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It's worth pointing out that everyone will have the same costs to pass on. The same happen in electrical game when part p came in the chancres that we're doing a **** job before the rules came in got found out and mostly went and the decent lads stepped up to the plate passed on cost to the customer and moved on. The same will happen here.
And the customers that wanted a sub priced job for quality work will still be there but frankly there often not worth the effort anyway. The chancres who don't know what there doing will get found out and felt with
And the customers that wanted a sub priced job for quality work will still be there but frankly there often not worth the effort anyway. The chancres who don't know what there doing will get found out and felt with
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JRSolutions_82
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Ok so as it stands as I offer a mobile mechanic/welding service and my work can vary from Mot repair, bob cat bucket repair, gate making, railings, to messanine from steel I beam construction - as a cross section of some work done in the last couple of weeks then I am a jobber welder, but to start offering/advertising the service of full fabrication service inc. balconys and railings and steel frame construction then exc 2 is required. TWI is who underwrites my insurance (trade wise insurance) is that who I need to contact? or is it another 'TWI certification ltd' as in a completely different company? I am I think as far away as its possible to be but am sure that change is inevitable but struggle is optional. So around £3000 is a ball park figure. What does FPC mean? I am guessing that it is just a term to describe the tracking and recording of stock>finished article, with some recorded QC procedures added in. Honestly I do not want to fall foul of the law or start advertising as a full fabrication service then have to quit in 6 months because I am not certified...this could be very detrimental to any business arrangements that I would have otherwise built up over the next six months with local building company's who produce new builds etc. It feels as though what I will be able to do and how I will be able to expand will be choked until I can gain the necessary qualifications/certifications to be compliant. I have already applied to my local collage to gain C&G qualifications - but even these will take time, what I need is a faster track - even if it means paying a higher fee. There has been some talk on here about grants being available, now I am relatively new to this business but I am turning over a halve decent amount of money with enough work to keep me very very busy. I would still want to take advantage of any help especially financially as a growing business everything I earn is already being reinvested and when a job requires a new tool then that is factored into the price of the job - from a longer extension cable to a Mag drill it all has to be paid for from the job in hand. There are a few items I can produce and resale that can earn me an income (snow plough, shoe racks and candle holders etc..) but even these require an initial investment for materials and finishing...I only currently use SIF consumables and the gas I currently use is 2% oxygen 20% Co2 78% Argon. but the gas I use at a company where I do work is supplied from someone else so would have to check that. In an effort to standardize my consumables would I be better of going with BOC and only using them or would I be able to use Adams gas? I also have pure argon for the tig. Thanks again eveyone!
JRSolutions_82
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Just re reading your post Matt and I see you suggest that I call them, do you mean TWI certification?
madkayaker
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I was just passing on experience from when part p got introduced.
JRSolutions_82
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my bad ...
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In my other world We had a very similar compliance come in under the ACCS around 15years ago , It meant that anyone growing or producing anything that would end up the food chain had to be compliant or have no way of selling there produce, TBH when it came in it was a nightmare, The scheme was massive and looks at everything from operator training to record keeping, to machine testing, to waste disposal, However in all honesty once compliance was reached, and everyone had the software, paperwork and correct training in place its not difficult to comply, and because of the yearly audits, anything new coming in is easily complied.
With that said its unlikely il bother with en1090, most of what I do or primary insured to do is modify or repair agricultural and construction machinery, and actually allot of the procedures on tractability inspection of repairs and compliance are already needed, to cross with both insurance and ACCS.
I doubt 1090 would be difficult to achieve for anyone needing to.
With that said its unlikely il bother with en1090, most of what I do or primary insured to do is modify or repair agricultural and construction machinery, and actually allot of the procedures on tractability inspection of repairs and compliance are already needed, to cross with both insurance and ACCS.
I doubt 1090 would be difficult to achieve for anyone needing to.
madkayaker
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thats ok. the firm you sub to are they going for approval? does en1090 allow you to do there work under there approval as sub contractor?
matt1978
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TWI certification ltd is a subsidiary of the TWI (The Welding Institute)
FPC Certificate is a Factory Production Control certificate and you get this based on putting together a Factory production Control manual. Which is a document or documents depending on how in depth regarding what I said about stock control, production process etc etc
ITT is Intial Type Testing and this is how you can demonstrate your actually doing what you say your doing, prototypes of a job etc
For Exc 2 pre qualified WPS are allowed in accordance with the standard but this also has to be in agreement with the paying clients wishes. In other words the EN1090-2 standard allows the use of them for exc 2 but if your doing a job for a particular client to exc 2 for the project that your auditing against and he stipulates that he wants specific WPS to the actual job then his wishes would override the standard if that makes sense.
If you contact the TWI certification Ltd it usually happens in 3 stages. You would have some sort of a questionnaire to fill in and probably an initial meeting/visit so they can assess how far away you currently are from being compliant, this is called gap analysis. Then they highlight all this items/areas missing or that need improving and then you have time to implement the changes then have you audit where upon they visit to see evidence of what you say your doing is actually what's being done and not just stuff that's wrote on a piece of paper. They will inspect the WPS, see some welding take place and then a formal interview with the RWC (Recognised Welding Co-Ordinator) if everything is ok you get compliance
FPC Certificate is a Factory Production Control certificate and you get this based on putting together a Factory production Control manual. Which is a document or documents depending on how in depth regarding what I said about stock control, production process etc etc
ITT is Intial Type Testing and this is how you can demonstrate your actually doing what you say your doing, prototypes of a job etc
For Exc 2 pre qualified WPS are allowed in accordance with the standard but this also has to be in agreement with the paying clients wishes. In other words the EN1090-2 standard allows the use of them for exc 2 but if your doing a job for a particular client to exc 2 for the project that your auditing against and he stipulates that he wants specific WPS to the actual job then his wishes would override the standard if that makes sense.
If you contact the TWI certification Ltd it usually happens in 3 stages. You would have some sort of a questionnaire to fill in and probably an initial meeting/visit so they can assess how far away you currently are from being compliant, this is called gap analysis. Then they highlight all this items/areas missing or that need improving and then you have time to implement the changes then have you audit where upon they visit to see evidence of what you say your doing is actually what's being done and not just stuff that's wrote on a piece of paper. They will inspect the WPS, see some welding take place and then a formal interview with the RWC (Recognised Welding Co-Ordinator) if everything is ok you get compliance
So will I need any of this ?. Everything I make is a one off or a modification/repair, for me to get into this EN1090 would cost far more than I would ever earn from it. I'm a sole trader and structural steel work/welding only forms maybe 20% of my business when there's nothing happening with the agricultural work.
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TBH proberbly not, and I dont know who you are insured with but the NFU in recent years has made it prohibitory expensive to carry works outside agriculture anyway, Erection of frames working at heights are now costing fortunes to do.
CE Marking for machines already exists, and working to procedures on things like PUH rings and other critical areas is always a good idea and of course anything involving lifting equipment is a given.
Its really what your insurance wants and needs you to carry, with me and Iv just reviewed my insurance, the standards I work to is fine, although as per usual its gone up by another £500.
In all honesty if its only 20% of turnover your proberbly better off saying no to the work you think may fall into EN1090 regs.
