CE Marking / BS EN 1090

[Welderpaul]

Good links Bob, I'll have another read up tonight. What is the first link, it's not showing properly?

A bottle of Specshield turned up yesterday, I didn't order it so presume you sent it in? We have decided now to go for EXC3 as a means of 'future proofing' so I think this means we can't use a 'standard' WPS, meaning we (or our RWC anyway)need to write our own. This gets over the gas issue as we can pick a standard Argoshield gas mix now.
If you and Mr Stacey still intend on coming to ours on the 16th I will gladly accommodate you.

 

[backpurge]

The first link was from a company called Code A Welder, don't why it won't copy and paste. Yep the Specshield was from me, I'll still come in then we can look at your flow rates as we talked about if you like, don't know if there's any need for Matt to call in though

 

[Welderpaul]

OK, great.

 

[^neo^]

Hi guys,
Been a while since i've been on, but someone mentioned this to us today, and after google threw up a load of meaningless jargon, I thought i'd come here for some sensible answers!

Read the 26 page document on the Parkersteel website, which sort of went over my head.

From what I understand from it all, anyone supplying and sort of steelwork for buildings needs CE mark the work they are suppying.
Ok, get that bit.
From reading the parkers pdf, if you buy a beam from them and do nothing with it, you're ok.
Get that bit.
If you buy a beam from them and cut, drill, weld, or even paint it then the supplied CE mark doesn't apply.
I think.
So, do we all have to be coded welders, cetificated for using a bandsaw, rotabroach and paintbrush, as well as being able to CE mark the work we have done? Or do we just pay the stockholders a fortune to drill the beams for us?

Then there is mention of 'one off' works..... What does that mean?
One off job supplying a couple of beams for an extension?

Background of the structural steelwork we do, is a builder supplies us with the structural engineers calcs, and drawings, and we put the holes in and weld any plates on, and the builder fits it.

How does it affect us?

Any help understanding received!

 

[matt1978]

The component parts, eg the nuts bolts washers, I beams, flanges etc all had to be CE marked by 01/07/13, the part of or complete final product, (ie the fabricated item) has to be CE marked from 01/07/14.

If you was a blacksmith or jobbing welder and a local builder sought you to make a I beam for a lintle or something on a extension for a house then you wouldn't need to CE mark it as the onus would be on the builder ensuring it met local building regs etc.

If you regularly offer structural steelwork as part of your business then you will need to have EN 1090-2 compliance.

 

[^neo^]

Thanks Matt, sort of clears it up lol

What is the difference in offering structural steelwork as part of your business, and manufacturing steelwork for a builder to their specs?!

Then there is also the mention of handrailing and baustrading. Same thing? If you advertise you make railings you need to be marked, but if a builder asks you to make some, then it's down to them?

Sorry if i'm sounding a div, but have spoken to a couple of our local guys in the trade and they have different interpretations on it, and the local council knew nothing about it!

 

[matt1978]

No need to apologise, there is a hell of a lot of misinformation out there and still hundreds of companies who hasn't even heard off it.

I think if it was anymore than a "one off" then it's a fair assumption that you would need to meet compliance.

Who will your builder be doing the work for? My example was more for small residential extensions, where it literally is just a lintle that's required. If the builder your doing work for is working on a larger project (seen as you also mentioned balaustrading, stair cases etc etc) Then the exc class designation 1-4 would if already been decided by the person who designed the structure, long before contracts were awarded for the actual fabrication.

 

[^neo^]

Generally, our structural side of things will be local builders doing house extensions for private residents. Yes, many of them will be beams bolted back to back, some will be a beam with a plate welded along the full length, some may have end plates welded on. But all done to drawings and calcs supplied by the builder.
But yes, we also do balustrading, again usually to drawings supplied, but we still do it.
We also manufacture work platforms and access equipment, is that going to come under the new scheme?

As you say, it seems there is a scary new regulation being started in July, with seemingly vague answers to what is actually covered. I bet i could go round to every steel company near me within a 10 mile radius (and there are a few) and most, if not all would know anything about it!

 

[^neo^]

Just spoken to my insurance company about this as they specialise in Steelworkers.
They were under the impression it was an 'opt in' thing, so went dug a little deeper. Can of worms opened
Outcome is, he has called an emergency meeting with someone from British Steel (or whoever they are) on Monday and will be producing a comprehensive guide of how it will affect us smaller guys, what we need to do, and courses and qualifications needed to comply.
As soon as I have the info I will pass it on!

 

[nickk]

last week i had a free consultation with MAS 2hours & very helpful ,i am awaiting clarification of a poss' exemption as i do bespoke structures either made on-site or a 1 off not being part of an other project,many other' micro' businesses could fall under this category & avoid being sucked in -we shall see i will report back.

 

[JD7710]

last week i had a free consultation with MAS 2hours & very helpful ,i am awaiting clarification of a poss' exemption as i do bespoke structures either made on-site or a 1 off not being part of an other project,many other' micro' businesses could fall under this category & avoid being sucked in -we shall see i will report back.

Depends on what type of bespoke structures you make !. For example if you make bespoke staircases even if no 2 are the same design you still make staircases therefore have to comply.

 

[nickk]

Depends on what type of bespoke structures you make !. For example if you make bespoke staircases even if no 2 are the same design you still make staircases therefore have to comply.

this is what i want clarifying as its a grey area.

 

[Andy south east]

Would the individual welder need to be qualified to comply? I for example am not a qualified welder. But iv been doing it for nearly 10years, i know my welds are good-ish as some of my work in the past has been NDT'd with no failures. Thank god. Also would you need to be coded to comply.

I do privately supply small beams for extensions. Mostly just straight un-touched beams which as far as i csn understand would be ce marked by the supplier. But if i had to drill the beams or add an end plate will this now need to be marked by myself or a testing company.

This is all going over my head a bit as iv never been involved the admin side of a fab business before, but now the guy i work for burdens a lot of this on to me to research. Its handy for me to know however where i stand for supplying beams etc privately.

Thanks for any responses.

 

[nickk]

you'd have to be coded for the beam work.

 

[Andy south east]

you'd have to be coded for the beam work.

Am i right in saying that you dont need to be qualified to become coded?

 

[nickk]

if your coded that means your qualified-to the standard of that code.

 

[Welderpaul]

'Coding' is an out dated term.
BS EN 287-1:2011 is the current standard to which welders must be qualified against. This is superseded by BS EN ISO 9606-1:2013.

Qualification of welders is nothing specific to BS 1090 - it's always been a requirement. BS 1090 makes it a set requirement in order to achieve approval of the factory procedure and therefore self-certificate steelwork/in-house CE mark.(One of many many requirements)

It is not possible to fab something up then get someone else to certificate it. There is no 'testing company'

One of the many things that BS 1090 should hopefully weed out is structural steelwork being welded by unqualified welders. Whilst i am sure it will still happen, management would have to make specific lies about who welded certain jobs, which are all traceable, in order to CE mark steelwork.

'Structural steelwork' is not just limited to beams and columns as some people think - it relates to staircases, balustrades, handrails etc etc - all things where the welds are critical.

Even lads who just tack together steelwork prior to welding have to obtain the welding qualifications under 287/9606 - 2 of my tackers and a welder have got their weld tests on Tuesday.

 

[Andy south east]

'Coding' is an out dated term.
BS EN 287-1:2011 is the current standard to which welders must be qualified against. This is superseded by BS EN ISO 9606-1:2013 in March this year.

Qualification of welders is nothing specific to BS 1090 - it's always been a requirement. BS 1090 makes it a set requirement in order to achieve approval of the factory procedure and therefore self-certificate steelwork/in-house CE mark.(One of many many requirements)

It is not possible to fab something up then get someone else to certificate it. There is no 'testing company'

One of the many things that BS 1090 should hopefully weed out is structural steelwork being welded by unqualified welders. Whilst i am sure it will still happen, management would have to make specific lies about who welded certain jobs, which are all traceable, in order to CE mark steelwork.

'Structural steelwork' is not just limited to beams and columns as some people think - it relates to staircases, balustrades, handrails etc etc - all things where the welds are critical.

Even lads who just tack together steelwork prior to welding have to obtain the welding qualifications under 287/9606 - 2 of my tackers and a welder have got their weld tests on Tuesday.

Ah. This throws the cat among the pidgeons. Does the balustrade and railings requirement apply to repairs? Thank you for shedding more light on this issue. Nice to know that some people know and understand. Some of the reading makes me feel like an inadequate child learning quantum physics.

 

[Welderpaul]

Think of the consequences of someone welding up a section of balustrade which protects say a 5m drop, and installing it on a school, someones house or similar.
Say the welds are poor, lack penetration or are too small. Balustrade fails and a family and/or kids fall and are injured or worse....

Its an extreme example, but i am aware of two instances in the media in the last year or so where this has happened resulting in deaths.

Matt i think made a good point, maybe on here....it's like a painter and decorator deciding overnight to be a fabricator, going out and buying a cheap underpowered SIP welder and setting up in business manufacturing structural steelwork/balustrades etc.
Until July this year there is nothing to stop any Joe Bloggs producing steelwork, on which peoples lives depend on, with no formal training/qualifications/experience etc.

Don't worry, I spent long enough asking daft questions trying to understand. Fabrication companies need to employ the services of a specialist consultant to take them through the process of achieving compliance. It's not easy.

I know a lot of people on here are more than capable, and i'm not trying to belittle anyone, but people do need to be aware.

 

[Andy south east]

Hi paul. Do you know how much off the top or your head how much the weld tests for your guys are costing?