Characteristics of a "Bad Rod"?

[matt1978]

Nightmare!

 

[scarecrow]

Who knows where Lidl are getting their rods. They could be a well known main stream brand. Its not certain that they are chinese just because they are cheap. Remember the "branded" products could have passed through a few sets of hands before they reach you.

There was rods first sale in Lidl here last week for €5.99 for 1kg which would be a complete rip-off even if they were good rods I bought 20 kilos of rods for €100 about two weeks ago which would average out at €5 a kilo
hillco velveta and bohler

 

[GeorgeB]

Matt, thank you for inviting me to your meeting but I'm afraid it's a bit too far, and that's the truth. If you can get Lorch HQ to fund a railway ticket in the interest of some potentially good PR, I'd love to attend.

As for an endurance test against a Lorch H series inverter, I agree your machine would win the sprint but I still reckon the Cosmo will outlast it by decades, long term. What I'm suggesting is that the Cosmo's duty cycle is unlikely to compare to the Lorch's (or my £50 Wolf Inverter actually) within each hour. But if that Lorch lasts over 10 years, without the need for any service or repair work, I suggest it would be VERY impressive for a complex piece of kit like the Lorch. On the other hand, the Cosmo could easily last 50 years as long as it's not dropped in a river or significantly overheated too many times.

I mentioned the £2500 Lorch unit because that's what was used. I've already said I agree that a £400 Lorch 'entry' model could doubtless do as well on a simple MMA weld, just like the Cosmo arc or Wolf inverter does.

The ONLY reason the Cosmo started smoking at the January meeting was because I'd used self-amalgamating tape and Aero turned it up full. Why do you disbelieve me? That machine can 'cope' with any welding amperage up to it's maximum 140 amps. It gets hotter, quicker, of course, on 140 amps than it does on 45 amps. As a result it cuts out quite often, by design, just on high amperages. I can live with that.The main reason I bought it was to weld thin sheet steel; not 6mm steel on 140 amps.

 

[malcolm]

Don't go antagonising people (this advice is offered equally to both sides of the argument). If I recall correctly we used a Lorch TIG machine at the start of the weld-off but any vertical fillet joints powered by Lorch were done with an H150. It was that little red one with the H on the side if you'll remember.

I felt the W0lf inverter worked well, but I didn't have the chance to try the Cosmo as it had released all it's smoke before my turn due to Aero's error of using it for nearly 2 rods at 90 amps or so, and your error of doing whatever you had done to the electrickery inside.

I preferred the DC inverter welders to the AC Oxford, but the only reason for that was ease of arc starting, crater filling, and welding uphill. I didn't have the chance to try the Cosmo, and Aero didn't have time to get used to it, so we can't make a judgement based on the weld off other than about the duty cycle. Sadly that didn't give us the chance to prove it was any better than the Oxford.

Your bead is looking good there though George. Have you tried vertical up yet - I reckon there's some good practice in that.

 

[matt1978]

Matt, thank you for inviting me to your meeting but I'm afraid it's a bit too far, and that's the truth. If you can get Lorch HQ to fund a railway ticket in the interest of some potentially good PR, I'd love to attend.

As for an endurance test against a Lorch H series inverter, I agree your machine would win the sprint but I still reckon the Cosmo will outlast it by decades, long term. What I'm suggesting is that the Cosmo's duty cycle is unlikely to compare to the Lorch's (or my £50 Wolf Inverter actually) within each hour. But if that Lorch lasts over 10 years, without the need for any service or repair work, I suggest it would be VERY impressive for a complex piece of kit like the Lorch. On the other hand, the Cosmo could easily last 50 years as long as it's not dropped in a river or significantly overheated too many times.

I mentioned the £2500 Lorch unit because that's what was used. I've already said I agree that a £400 Lorch 'entry' model could doubtless do as well on a simple MMA weld, just like the Cosmo arc or Wolf inverter does.

The ONLY reason the Cosmo started smoking at the January meeting was because I'd used self-amalgamating tape and Aero turned it up full. Why do you disbelieve me? That machine can 'cope' with any welding amperage up to it's maximum 140 amps. It gets hotter, quicker, of course, on 140 amps than it does on 45 amps.

OK, a couple of things............you give the impression to most people who read your comments that you are comparing your machine to a Lorch T220 and from your opinion there is not any difference.........

For example, why bother even mentioning the fact that the other welds were made with the Lorch T220 and an expensive helmet, why even mention the price???

You could of just said that you had welded with the Lidl rods and said in your opinion there was nothing wrong with them......why even mention anythin else......

If you was testing some new budget tyres, would it make much difference if you tested them on a Rolls Royce or a Ford Fiesta?

You wind a lot of people up on this forum purely because you seem hellbent on trying to convince everyone that your AC Buzzbox is caperble of the same performance as 'pro' kit.

No one has ever said, George, go out and buy an expensive machine, so why do you feel the need to try and convince people that the Aldi buzzbox is the way to go?

Regarding your comment about the head to head, if you was talking about a quality, well made transformer type machine, then you may have a point to a certain degree, but I dont think for one minute that can be applied to your AC buzzboxes.

I could weld flat out with a H series all day and the amount of time the cooling fan came on or how many times the duty cycle was exceeded wouldnt make any difference to the longevity of the machine........

If a Lorch H machine, doesnt perform to the output performance or the duty cycle performance for the entire life time of the machine (whilst the original owner still owns the machine, not the warranty period) then the Lorch factory will give that person a full refund.....this is in writing in the 'Book of Welding'.

Reserch shows that the average machine gets dropped atleast 4 or 5 times throughout its useful life (weather its an expensive inverter or a bog standard ac buzzbox), my machine is garranteed crash proof from 80 cm, repeatedly. I bet if you dropped yours once or twice from a reasonable height it wouldnt be much cop.

 

[Muggins the Mug]

This thread was started by Ian (Muggins) saying or implying that Lidl rods are rubbish.

A fair and accurate description, nothing has changed in that regards - they're still crap.

Regards,

Ian.

 

[madkayaker]

 

[GeorgeB]

OK, a couple of things............you give the impression to most people who read your comments that you are comparing your machine to a Lorch T220 and from your opinion there is not any difference.

Matt, I fear you may be putting words in my mouth when you say I say there's no difference between a £30 Cosmo 150 and a £2500 (approx) Lorch T220. I've never said any such thing. I was very impressed with that T220 but, just on the above simple weld, I think the Cosmo/Lidl combination compares quite favourably. I admit I listed the Lorch vs Cosmo thing, complete with prices, to help generate interest. I wasn't out to antagonise you or anyone.

As for being hellbent on 'selling' my AC buzz box, I'm content to be judged purely on results, including the above weld with 2.5mm Lidl rods at about 90 amps, and photos of my welds on 0.8mm steel with Aldi 1.6mm rods. I could say that too many people are hellbent on promoting premium kit here, when perhaps it's not always necessary to buy premium kit but that's OK, is it? I'm not as interested in the kit as I am in the results.

You say my AC welding unit is not a "quality, well made transformer type machine." I say it is. A transformer is a transformer within its duty cycle. If it's kept reasonably cool, it doesn't need to weigh 250kg, be made of copper and sit in oil, like an Oxford transformer. Anyway, the kit is a bit irrelevant, as I said. That Cosmo/Lidl weld compares quite well with anything done at the meeting, even though it's not exactly a challenging weld. The Lorch may have produced square waves or whatever. The Oxford juice may have passed through a choke bathed in oil but did they produce markedly better welds, just on that 6mm flat panel? No. Malcolm is right. I must try a vertical weld.

Do Lorch really guarantee their machines for life? I thought it was 3 years, which is still very good.

What exactly do you mean when you say: "If a Lorch H machine, doesnt perform to the output performance or the duty cycle performance for the entire life time of the machine (whilst the original owner still owns the machine, not the warranty period) then the Lorch factory will give that person a full refund"? If the Lorch inverter just stops and goes dead after 5 years, that surely means it doesn't perform to the output performance. Say a PCB has blown and needs replacement. Would that work be done free of charge?

I'm sorry to hear that welders mistreat their tools to the extent of dropping them quite often. I wouldn't want to drop anything but I doubt if much could break on that Cosmo, apart from the plastic switch and any floor tiles, perhaps.

 

[simon718]

only welding item i would buy out of lidl would be one of the handheld face masks, get me a bit more used to welding one - handed, heard too much bad stuff about cheap rods although you never know where they've come from

 

[GeorgeB]

A fair and accurate description, nothing has changed in that regards - they're still crap.

If you mean the results in your hands, then maybe. Only you know. I showed a photo of a half decent weld done with Lidl rods and all you can say is a four letter word?

 

[Muggins the Mug]

If you mean the results in your hands, then maybe. Only you know. I showed a photo of a half decent weld done with Lidl rods and all you can say is a four letter word?

Lidl and Aldi are also four letter words, but depending on who you speak to - they may or maynot be so useful.

Regards,

Ian.

 

[Archie]

From what Matt said to me the Lorch Bible of Welding basically states that if at any time during its life a Lorch machine fails to meet the duty cycle it purports to then the machine will be replaced. I think you'd be taking the the letter printed a bit to literally if you were to try and argue that it was broken, therefore didn't meet the duty cyle advertised and you were therefore entitled to a replacement.

 

[matt1978]

No George, I didnt say that they was garranteed for life, they have a 3 year warranty. What I said was if they stopped performing to how they should do (or how they was when they were brand new), regarding duty cycle or maximum outputs, then the customer could get a refund for aslong as he/she owned the machine. What I mean by that George is that just because the machine is used heavily or at its top end for prolonged periods of time, it will not effect the output or performance of the machine in years to come.

I also said, the impression that you give most people from your posts was that you was making direct comparisons between one of my machines and the Aldi machine.

I dont see how you can keep going on about the Cosmo unit at this 'arc off' as from what other people who attended have said, they didnt get much chance to use it or compare it, as it was up in smoke after 2 rods (regardless of fault).

This independant research said that a machine would be dropped 4-5 times during its useful life, they didn't say it was by people who abuse or are heavy handed with there machines.......it happens to normal people in normal situations, I am sure that these people don't mean to drop there kit. So you'll be fine aslong as you treat your unit with kid gloves?? Thats not the real world mate and the whole point of the discussion was that your unit is fine in your garage/weld once in while envioronment and no one has ever disputed that, but we are talking about production tools for earning money and I still stand by the fact that your unit wouldnt last 2 months in a real work envioronment.

As far as I have seen, no one has ever blindly pushed 'pro' kit onto anyone who comes on here and asks for advice, people give the benfit of there experience, people who have been in the industry for years.

 

[GeorgeB]

the whole point of the discussion was that your unit is fine in your garage/weld once in while envioronment and no one has ever disputed that, but we are talking about production tools for earning money and I still stand by the fact that your unit wouldnt last 2 months in a real work envioronment.

I agree it's not comparing like with like. Other than as an interesting headline, I never intended to compare a Lorch T220 with my Cosmo 150. None of my 'results' and comments should be taken as applicable outside of the DIY arena. BUT just on that test strip, welds done with one Lorch or another aren't too different to my eye, with good brand rods, with the welds I did today with the Cosmo 150 and 'crap' Lidl rods, as Muggins would have us believe. I say that, for DIY use, on the basis of the first half a rod which I've used, that they are perfectly good rods.

 

[Muggins the Mug]

If you want George, you can have whats left in the pack that I bought from Lidl. I've found what I like and I intend to stick with Bohler's and a couple of ones from eBay.

Regards,

Ian.

 

[matt1978]

I agree it's not comparing like with like. Other than as an interesting headline, I never intended to compare a Lorch T220 with my Cosmo 150. None of my 'results' and comments should be taken as applicable outside of the DIY arena. BUT just on that test strip, welds done with one Lorch or another aren't too different to my eye, with good brand rods, with the welds I did today with the Cosmo 150 and 'crap' Lidl rods, as Muggins would have us believe. I say that, for DIY use, on the basis of the first half a rod which I've used, that they are perfectly good rods.

Yes, so why keep insisting on mentioning the price of the T220? I would never advise anyone who only wanted to weld 2 or 3 rods as a flat bead on a piece of 6mm plate in there garage to buy a T220! The same as I would never advise anyone who purely wanted to repair a car using 1.6mm rods in the spare time to buy one either and I dont think you'll find me or anyone else who is involved in the industry full time has ever done that.

Without being disrectful, whilst your just learning, it wouldnt matter what machine or rods you were using initially, because most of the result will be down to technique.............good or bad

The difference is, when you know how to weld and you do it for a living, it is possible to get more from 'pro' kit, especially when your relying on that kit to earn a living with.

 

[TechnicAl]

Someone said the Lidl rods were £5.99 per Kg. Thats not cheap. At half that price a Distributor would have the choice of any rods on the market. I see that Muggins thinks they are crap and I respect his opinion but thats what it is. One mans meat is another mans poison.

Just returned from the pub. Man U were unlucky

 

[GeorgeB]

Someone said the Lidl rods were £5.99 per Kg. Thats not cheap. At half that price a Distributor would have the choice of any rods on the market. I see that Muggins thinks they are crap and I respect his opinion but thats what it is. One mans meat is another mans poison.

I think he said they were 5.99 Euros in Ireland. All I know is that the 1Kg pack cost me £3.99 in England. That's not bad for a relatively small quantity. You'd expect bulk discounts from higher quantities and perhaps not everyone wants to store or buy 20Kg of welding rods.

I'm sorry but I don't respect Muggins opinion. He's provided scant evidence for his damning report on the Lidl rods. If I was the Lidl buyer, I wouldn't be pleased. I was so sure he was wrong, that I set about checking for myself. I'm sure a few dozen people must have read his report and, as a result, decided not to buy the Lidl rods. In my opinion, they've been seriously mislead.

 

[Muggins the Mug]

Yes George, I am entitled to my opinion (for what it's worth). I went out and bought these rods because they were cheap. At the end of the day, that was against the perceived wisdom in earlier threads about them, i.e. that they'd be cheap rubbish. This was later proved to be correct from experimenting with them on different pieces of scrap steel and after my rotten techniques had improved.

Regards,

Ian.

ps: Regarding the way this thread is going George, this image seems to sum it up nicely...

 

[matt1978]

on the basis of the first half a rod which I've used, that they are perfectly good rods.

All this and you have only burnt half of 1 rod??

If you want to give a proper informative opinion, then you should atleast base it on your experience once you have used the whole packet in different scenarios/welding positions........

Only welding half a rod as a bead in the flat position, is no basis to form a proper opinion good or bad about any electrode.