Characteristics of a "Bad Rod"?

[gavuk]

I'm not above buying stuff from aldi,compressor,chisel etc,i wouldn't buy unbranded or not well known welding rods from them ,the things i buy are gauranteed for 3 years,the 2 types of rod that Woz spotted,were bought by people thinking they were buying similar type rods,if they had asked there would have been nobody in the store to shed any light on the difference ,i wouldn't feel happy trusting anything i weld to a supermarket supplier,storage handling ?aldi staff don't know what they are doing ,its not a dig at aldi i wouldn't buy from wilkos .tesco's any of them......I would also have to say ,i don't think people are being advised to spend money on pro gear either ,i wouldn't waste my money on a buzz box and i wouldn't advise anyone else to either,i believe the amount of real world jobs and rods that have been through my hands gives me that right as will many more experienced than me ,don't count your welding in single rods count it in days and years and box's of rods or kgs of mig wire. I have an old sealey mig which is not a popular welder on the forum ,its done for me for years at home ,i try to give a balanced view and offer anyone to come and try it ,i don't tell ,everyone else they are wrong about clarke welders because i have never used one.so how can i compare?i can't, i won't speculate how long a clarke will last whats the point ?i can state how long my sealey has lasted ,its a fact.I'm never offended if somone doesn't take my advice ,i have kids ,im used to it........I'm also dubious of taking advise from someone who forms an opinion before trying something, but expects everyone else to proove everything they know to be true because they been doing it for years either diy or pro...Gav

 

[TechnicAl]

E4322R21 is basically the British / European equiavelent of E6013 which is American.
The first 4 numbers (4322) represent the mechanical properties, the R means rutile and the 21 means all positional AC/DC.

E6022 are Iron Oxide rods (if my memory serves me well) they are great to use but the welds are full of impurities and porosity. As far as I am aware they have been obsolete for years. they simply fell out of favour especially in Europe.

Personally I like E7024s Iron Powder Rutiles. put down very pretty welds but penetration is limited. 3.2mm runs like a 4mm 6013

Back on topic (sort of). We used to make the same rod but we added a dye, red or blue. Some welders loved the red ones and hated the blue and vice versa. We also made rods for other companies and you would be amazed at the claims made to differentiate one rod from another which was really the same.

Still goes on today, Jaguar is really a Mondeo. Vectra is a Saab, etc etc.

How many jars of coffee are the same?

 

[Wozzaaah]

Thanks T/A, that clears that one up nicely

That pdf made it seem that 4322 was the equivalent of 6022.

 

[runnach]

We used to make the same rod but we added a dye, red or blue. Some welders loved the red ones and hated the blue and vice versa. We also made rods for other companies and you would be amazed at the claims made to differentiate one rod from another which was really the same.

Placebo rods, strange how the human mind can affect ones judgment!!!

Al, received STT11 with LF33 feeder, will be interesting trying it out next week, mucho pipe prepared

 

[Hitch]

We used to have a shed load of multi coloured rods in the stores, been there years. Boxes and boxes chucked out.

 

[GeorgeB]

I saw some of the Lidl specials (6013 electrodes) for sale a couple of days ago and bought them, mainly to see if they are not so bad after all. I'd be surprised if they are. Most stuff I buy from Lidl is very good indeed.

Sorry, I now realise the Lidl rods I tried are marked E4322 R(C)3 on the box so I guess they are the same as Muggins'. I wrongly assumed they were 6013s. The picture on the Lidl box shows the rods stamped EN499, as indeed the rods are. All I know is, they seem to work well. Are we sure these numbers aren't somehow equivalent to 6013?

A key reason I buy stuff from Aldi and Lidl is because the staff don't know what they're talking about, at least as far as technical specs go. Who needs them to? It's the same argument as thinking you get a better car if you buy it from a luxurious showroom with a fountain in the foyer, free coffee and biscuits and sales staff who look like models. Many people fall for that one, too.

 

[Tigman]

Ive used Fincord Rods for as long as I can remember and find them to be OK , I have had rods given to me from firms that have closed and used them without looking at the brand , if you can weld you tend to adapt to the rods you are using and the metals that you are welding , I weld with a Quasi arc oil filled transformer in the workshop an old beast of a welder , when I am out on site I take a Themalarc inverter DC lays down a lovely weld , you can tell the difference between AC and DC .I used to take an old buzz box out on site blow fuses and the machine would cut out when welding 3.2 rods , but always got a good weld out of it ,sold it for a tenner , Result !. Ive been Arc welding for 30 years , Mig for the last 10 years , and Tig for the last 10 years , love the Tig , dont do enough tho !

 

[Wozzaaah]

George, read TechnicAl's post and he explains it all, 4322 is the european equivalent of 6013.

 

[Tigman]

Meant to ask where and how often do you hold these get togethers , weld offs , good idea to share knowledge and compare machines !

 

[Archie]

There's been much talk previously of a forum meet but as far as I'm aware this is the only one to have taken place and there were only four attendees! Matt1978 has proposed one at his place just outside Cannock but as yet there is no date.

 

[GeorgeB]

There's been much talk previously of a forum meet but as far as I'm aware this is the only one to have taken place and there were only four attendees! Matt1978 has proposed one at his place just outside Cannock but as yet there is no date.

Malcolm arranged the meeting perfectly in my opinion, including the 4 person limit. The main reason was the single garage but many more people would have been a crowd in terms of any meaningful comparisons and hands-on sessions. As it was, we didn't get through all the permutations and combinations possible between the different welders, rod types and joint types. A larger meeting might be fun and it could be run as a sort of demo lecture but I don't see how very many people could get to use a variety of gear.

I just looked up E4322 and I think the Murex sites lists them as equivalent to type 6022 so it's all a bit confusing.

 

[Archie]

Sorry Geroge. I wasn't suggesting there should've been more than 4 people. For the purposes of your particular meet I'm sure that was just fine. I merely meant that no 'serious' forum meet has yet materialised.

 

[GeorgeB]

why would a supermarket sell 6022, surely any non positional fast fill rod is never going to be in the domain of anyone buying rods from tescos? what next castlites, metro Gauguin's, hows about some 7024 iron powders as a BOGOF..why feck about, just buy em from someone who knows what there selling

All I know is that many of the non-food items sold by Lidl and Aldi are good quality and low cost. I have no idea how their buyers operate or where the stuff comes from but I've taken a chance with these non-branded products enough times to know they are normally very good. For my money, the Lidl rods also seem very good.

When I started arc welding, I went to a local welding supplier, thinking I was doing the right thing to buy some rods. They knew what they were selling, all right. They used their knowledge to sell me a mediocore brand at a sky-high, rip-off price. Never again...

The Lidl box says of the E4322 rods: rutile, cellulose coated for welding low-alloy steels. For all welding positions - also suitable for top welding. Smooth arc welding and good ignition features. Compatible with light socket transformers.

 

[GeorgeB]

Sorry Geroge. I wasn't suggesting there should've been more than 4 people. For the purposes of your particular meet I'm sure that was just fine. I merely meant that no 'serious' forum meet has yet materialised.

No need to say sorry. I just took it as a statement of fact that our meeting was only 4 people; not a grumble or anything.

 

[TechnicAl]

All I know is that many of the non-food items sold by Lidl and Aldi are good quality and low cost. I have no idea how their buyers operate or where the stuff comes from but I've taken a chance with these non-branded products enough times to know they are normally very good. For my money, the Lidl rods also seem very good.

When I started arc welding, I went to a local welding supplier, thinking I was doing the right thing to buy some rods. They knew what they were selling, all right. They used their knowledge to sell me a mediocore brand at a sky-high, rip-off price. Never again...

The Lidl box says of the E4322 rods: rutile, cellulose coated for welding low-alloy steels. For all welding positions - also suitable for top welding. Smooth arc welding and good ignition features. Compatible with light socket transformers.

As I said, at the price they have the choice of any 6013 in Europe. They could be buying low and selling high, or they could be buying quality.

All I know is that one certain European manufacturer is NOT supplying them.

 

[TechnicAl]

Placebo rods, strange how the human mind can affect ones judgment!!!

Al, received STT11 with LF33 feeder, will be interesting trying it out next week, mucho pipe prepared

Wow, that is some fancy piece of kit. Persevere with it, you will be amazed at the results once its set up correctly. I dont know any details of your trials but if there is no Lincoln person attending dont be afraid to call and ask questions.

For those of you that dont know what we are talking about STT (surface tension transfer) looks like a MIG set but the welds are TIG appearance / quality. A bit slower than spray MIG but much higher than dip MIG and better control. A lot faster than TIG.
It is used on car body panels (not many) but a machine will cost more than many cars.

 

[TechnicAl]

I just looked up E4322 and I think the Murex sites lists them as equivalent to type 6022 so it's all a bit confusing.

As I said earlier 6022 is obsolete in Europe, dont know about other parts of the world but I think it is.
Why Murex have it listed is nonsense.

EN499 E4322 means 430N/mm2 min tensile strength and the 22 means CVNs of 47J at -20oC.

The next bit is important R or R(C) means Rutile or Rutile (cellulosic) hybrid. The RCs are usually a bit more spattery but with better pen. To be honest regardless of whether they are designated R or RC most 6013s contain some cellulose.

It is confusing but in a nutshell what you have tried and E6013 will be the same type.

A 6022 would have a coating at least twice the thickness

Are you still confused?

 

[GeorgeB]

As I said, at the price they have the choice of any 6013 in Europe. They could be buying low and selling high, or they could be buying quality. All I know is that one certain European manufacturer is NOT supplying them.

I just noticed another bit of info on the Lidl box. There is a reference to Gasgerate GmbH in Offenau, Germany and it says: "Szarmazasi hely: Szlovenia" so it looks like the rods might have been produced in Szlovenia. Then again, perhaps Szlovenia bought them in from China...If so, I don't mind. They work!

 

[matt1978]

For those of you that dont know what we are talking about STT (surface tension transfer) looks like a MIG set but the welds are TIG appearance / quality. A bit slower than spray MIG but much higher than dip MIG and better control. A lot faster than TIG.
It is used on car body panels (not many) but a machine will cost more than many cars.

Yes, its definately is a really great process

 

[runnach]

but if there is no Lincoln person attending dont be afraid to call and ask questions.

LE expert will attend to setup and demo plant, have to say I'm looking forward to comparing STT to normal mig. I'll aslo study this prior to Monday.

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/content/sttopenroot.asp

Cheers.