ford wet belt engines??

[James1979]

I was working at a place today that had the engine from a 17 plate transit in bits.

Some intended, some fished out of the guts.

Snapped crank. Belt had let go and it had snapped the bearings in the block where the journals sit.

Talking about it, we think that the oil pickup had blocked and it had starved on #1 causing it to bind and seize the crank.

Hell of a mess. They have a new engine coming from Fords. £2300 they thought.

 

[premmington]

I was working at a place today that had the engine from a 17 plate transit in bits.

Some intended, some fished out of the guts.

Snapped crank. Belt had let go and it had snapped the bearings in the block where the journals sit.

Talking about it, we think that the oil pickup had blocked and it had starved on #1 causing it to bind and seize the crank.

Hell of a mess. They have a new engine coming from Fords. £2300 they thought.

They will be lucky - I heard Fords had run out of replacement engines - back order to factory in Dagenham - vans now made in Turkey but engines still made in UK (I think?)

 

[Barking Mat]

I work next door to a predominantly Peugeot racing rally 4x4 racing company. They have numerous vans for delivering the racing cars to the rally courses. One of the Pug vans has a Ford engine, the father of the son, who runs the company, was having issues with a van engine, t'other day, Ford engine, Peugeot and Ford had done some deal, engine exchange, and they had issue with the Ford engine, admittedly it was injectors, nothing more serious, but they all reckon the Pug 2.0l hdi engine will, nearly run forever.

 

[minimutly]

Indeed some of the nineties on Diesel engines would do astronomical mileages, shame it’s all gone to sh1t, but it keeps someone in a job. Interestingly, Rover did try a 3 cyl K series, but felt it wasn’t smooth enough for their cars - this was back in the eighties? And in defence of the old K, i’ve Stripped and fixed many many of them with hg failures, after the modified gasket was fitted the issues were always caused by loss of coolant from the crusty radiator. 100k milers often like new inside, as long as they hadn’t melted...

 

[cardiffrob]

178,000 on a Mondeo 2.0TDCi. Never had the wet belt changed.

Waiting for the big day.....

 

[hermetic]

we have engines that self destruct if the cam belt snaps, or the wet belt snaps, or the water pump seizes, or the utility belt snaps and takes out the cambelt, which wrecks the engine, previous to these engines we had the rover engines with the thermostat in the wrong place which led to overheating of an all aluminium clamshell engine, with predictable results! When are we going to realise that the people who design engines do not actually understand what they are doing, or are building sef destroying engines on purpose! Any engine that relies on the integrity of a rubber belt to remain in one piece is a crap engine, and is built that way for one reason alone, because it is CHEAPER!!
Rant over!
Phil

 

[brewdexta]

I have a Ford Ranger with the 2.0L bi-turbo engine, currently in warranty until September. Only done 14k from new, so far all issues have been dealer based. I had two speed sensors fail, both took an age to diagnose/fix under warranty.

Looking at the reports, so far, the "Panther" EcoBlue engine has had some injector issues that seemed to be fixed but not many reports of belt failure, as far as I can see, but it seems its also a wet belt system, as the below extract from South African Auto Trader says.

"Conventional engineering dictates that an overhead-cam engine’s camshaft drive mechanism will rely on either a fibre-reinforced dry (rubber) belt or a timing chain which uses engine oil for lubrication. Ford’s engineers have other ideas about that, though, and combined the best attributes of each in a new kind of cam drive system. As first pioneered in the 1.0T EcoBoost engine, the 2.0 Panther employs a “wet” cambelt design – literally an enclosed rubber-toothed timing belt that runs in a continuous supply of oil.

This sounds counter-intuitive to any mechanic, who’s been taught that exposure to engine oil is a sure-fire way to reduce the lifespan of any rubber belt – and up till now, they’ve been absolutely correct. But Ford’s engineers came up with a special kind of timing belt, made of materials which can resist the onslaught of engine oil, and which offers quieter and more efficient operation than chain drive systems while taking up no extra space. Clever indeed."

So, in September, should I snog/marry/avoid the car?

 

[DanZac]

So, in September, should I snog/marry/avoid the car?

I've got no where near the knowledge or experience of most of the people here, but from my perspective and understanding a lot of the issues and problems that seem to plague modern engines are down to missuse and lack of routine maintainence / incorrect servicing.

I'm not saying that there's not issues with wet belts, but all new technology has teething problems.

We could probably discount pretty much every manufacturer for some problem over the years. From my basic knowledge, certain Mazda engines suffer failure due to extended oil change intervals and oil dilution during DPF regen, as do others. Renault had a spate of turbo issues at one point. The old PSA TU engines had head gasket issues, we had a thread not so long ago about BMW's used as police cars failing, and I'm sure that there's more.

While we at it what about DPF problems, there's plenty of well known documented issues there too.

Likewise, it would be interesting to know how many of us that are saying steer clear of wet belts have experienced failure of a normal cambelt (I have), I'm sure that there's plenty of documented failures out there across all vehicle types.

Maybe we should go back to push rod engines, oh wait a minute, they had failures too.

Unfortunately you only read about the failures. But if it was me, and I knew the history of the vehicle and that it was being correctly maintained, then I'd take a punt on it.

 

[m_c]

I always love when people get the rose tinted glasses out, about how modern stuff isn't as good.

we have engines that self destruct if the cam belt snaps, or the wet belt snaps, or the water pump seizes, or the utility belt snaps and takes out the cambelt, which wrecks the engine,

We also have far better fuel economy and emissions.
Off course you could go to chain drive which means you need to compromise valve timing to allow for chain wear (belts don't wear, so timing remains the same between replacement).
Or you could go back to side valves, or have enough valve/piston clearance that compression is that poor the volumetric efficiency is horrendous.

previous to these engines we had the rover engines with the thermostat in the wrong place which led to overheating of an all aluminium clamshell engine, with predictable results!

There was a reason behind that setup. I can't quite remember the details as it's been several years since I covered it, but IIRC it was to allow faster warmup and a more stable operating temp. The biggest flaw with that engine was the rubbish head gasket, and it was prone to coolant leaks, not the thermostat.

When are we going to realise that the people who design engines do not actually understand what they are doing, or are building sef destroying engines on purpose! Any engine that relies on the integrity of a rubber belt to remain in one piece is a crap engine, and is built that way for one reason alone, because it is CHEAPER!!
Rant over!
Phil

That rubber belt is far more efficient than a chain. It allows more precise valve timing over the lifespan of the belt, as the belt doesn't wear.
And it's not as though timing chains are infallible. I've seen plenty chains fail.


Off course some people would love to go back to the "good old days" of cities turning black due to soot with the smell of hydrocarbons hanging in the air, having to service their car every few thousand miles, always wondering when it'll breakdown next.
Lets remember pre 90s, how many engines ever made it to 80k without needing major work?

 

[Farside]

Not heard of this before but I figured it was emmisons related which it is



It's like going from duplex timing chains which do not break, back to single row timing chains which auto manfacturers have done. All for efficiency. But Jags etc breaking the single row chains at 30k odd miles upwards for example means automotive companies are "advancing" backwards if you ask me.

Yebbut, there's no excuse for shoddy design.
I've put literally hundreds of thousands of miles on single-row timing chains, on my bikes.

 

[Farside]

Someone actually commented recently that the company which makes the wetbelts recommends they are changed every 5 years but ford say 10 years, invite disaster but are reluctant to pick up the pieces when disaster strikes.
Ford are often not putting it right either.

This reminds of the debacle that Ford created when they took the stone-reliable 1600 diesel Escort engine, made it an 1800, but had the belt doing extra work.
The recommended change interval was something like 60K miles on the old one and Ford didn't change that.
Belts started snapping at 30K...

 

[Farside]

Sorry mate, no three cylinder engine sounds OK

<legions of Triumph Triple owners jump up and down>
Heretic!
There's nothing like the sound of ripping silk when a Slippery Sam replica winds its way along the glens.

 

[MetalMonkey]

then what most cars have wet belts on then.theres no way of getting away from them.

I've seen that page its quite alarming. but what choice do I have considering that nearly all cars have wet belts.

Do they?
I'm curious to know just how many makes and models do.

I don't know much about Hyundai but I believe a lot of theirs still have dry belts and some even have chains.

 

[Turbo]

Lets remember pre 90s, how many engines ever made it to 80k without needing major work?

The Peugeot XUD engine fitted to citroen & peugeots as well as other makes could go on for a few hundred thousand miles with just basic servicing. Its replacement, the HDI engine will do the same with proper maintenance.

 

[Ubique]

...
And it's not as though timing chains are infallible. I've seen plenty chains fail.
....

Chain stretch is a real issue and something that I get plenty of work from, not always taxi mileage or particularly old either. The BMW petrol engine foisted onto PSA owners used to be one of my regular jobs.

 

[Bornfree]

This is what I run. Now coming up to 200k miles.I expect I will need to replace the timing chain in another 200k how tiresome.

 

[sako243]

What's happened with the camless stuff that Koenigsegg (and a few other manufacturers) were working on? Surprised that hasn't become more readily available as it'll eliminate quite a bit of weight from an engine getting rid of the camshaft, rockers and so on. Particularly for diesels I can see it being far more efficient fuel wise and emissions wise as when they went EFI / Common Rail the ability to control the burn cycle was where the improvements came from.

 

[JOEPRO]

Yebbut, there's no excuse for shoddy design.
I've put literally hundreds of thousands of miles on single-row timing chains, on my bikes.

Having worked on both duplex chain engines and single chain engines and seen failures on single chain engines first hand at low miles I 100% can tell you which one I'd rather have.

Duplex for the win.

And chains moved to the back of engines in recent years. So you have to remove the transmission at minimum to get at all the rails.

Bloody engineers

 

[charlysays]

The Peugeot XUD engine fitted to citroen & peugeots as well as other makes could go on for a few hundred thousand miles with just basic servicing. Its replacement, the HDI engine will do the same with proper maintenance.

Yeah I had one, Peugeot 405 1.9 TD. Bought it for 80 quid as an MOT fail, spent the weekend welding the inner wings and then drove it for nearly 5 years with lots of long distance trips gigging. It had 220k on it when I got it and had 300k when I stopped using it and didn't use a drop of oil and started on the button with loads of power. Wish I had tackled the rust round the rear end tbh and kept it. Brilliant engine. Ran pretty well on veg oil but not a patch on a Merc with an inline injector pump but the economy and relative simplicity wins me round these days plus the 800 mile range on a brimmed tank. Those engines often seemed to need a head gasket at 200k, timing belts about every 80k miles IIRC but other than that they were absolutely bomb proof.

 

[charlysays]

This is what I run. Now coming up to 200k miles.I expect I will need to replace the timing chain in another 200k how tiresome. View attachment 399629

I run an OM605, similar durability. I know a couple of people who thought they needed to change their timing chain at 250k miles and barely measured any extra length over a new one lol