ford wet belt engines??

[dobbslc]

Devils Advocate: the belt would have lasted if it wasn't for the specification of the coolant pump....

And 40k on an Alfa is aspirational the body would let go of the powertrain long before that!

This is true about the pump!
I think Alfa learnt their lesson in the 70-80's and now galvanise the cars, they really dont rust much, as for Mercedes Benz...

 

[minimutly]

The first - no sorry the second belt drive engine I built was a the Rover 2l mi16 (the first would have the a Vauxhall 1300). Setting the valve timing on my engine stand I was amazed how tight an engine with one piston, no rings etc was to turn. So I went through the process of eliminating stuff. Didn't take long to find that a smidgeon too much belt tension was the issue. So I would set it just tight enough - it was a race engine after all. Trouble was at lowish rpm the belt would "flutter" on the long tight span between bottom pulley and exhaust. The answer to that was an idler on the back of the long stretch, just on the belt enough to stop it rattling.
And belts do stretch - or rather wear, which does alter timing, as do chains I think. Maybe belts less, but it still needs an auto tensioner. There isn't really an answer since they got the rest of the engine to last more than 60,000 miles...

 

[AVI_8]

I’ve done all of the maintenance on my cars since I was 17 years old I was lucky enough to have a job as a mechanic as my first job though I didn’t stay on and I’m not time served. I’m convinced that most of the issues with modern engines in general are from poor service schedules. Manufacturers specify oil and filter changes at ridiculously high mileages, 18,000 mile oil is 18,000 mile oil, it degrades and is way way past its best at that stage and will already have caused some damage, especially to seals on hydraulic tensioners, turbochargers etc.
I‘ve never bought a new car in my life, when I replace a car it’s generally around 8 years old, 1 owner and full main dealer history with low mileage (around 80K) I‘ve been buying high spec BMW’s for the past 25 years for very sensible money, some other eejit has paid the depreciation.
I change the oil and filters in my cars every 5000 miles, good quality Millers oil and Mann or Meyle filters, I buy the oil in 25 litre drums it’s cheaper that way, my cars are looked after way more meticulously than the service schedule, my cars have always been totally reliable ….. I wonder why? Well apart from my german air cooled but I’m sure it’ll be an issue caused by someone else who had been in there before!
My point is that I’d be surprised if shoddy maintenance and too long between oil and filter changes is not the reason why modern engines are self destructing on a regular basis, and wonder how many of these engines would still be running if only they’d a service twice per year.

 

[Bornfree]

I’ve done all of the maintenance on my cars since I was 17 years old I was lucky enough to have a job as a mechanic as my first job though I didn’t stay on and I’m not time served. I’m convinced that most of the issues with modern engines in general are from poor service schedules. Manufacturers specify oil and filter changes at ridiculously high mileages, 18,000 mile oil is 18,000 mile oil, it degrades and is way way past its best at that stage and will already have caused some damage, especially to seals on hydraulic tensioners, turbochargers etc.
I‘ve never bought a new car in my life, when I replace a car it’s generally around 8 years old, 1 owner and full main dealer history with low mileage (around 80K) I‘ve been buying high spec BMW’s for the past 25 years for very sensible money, some other eejit has paid the depreciation.
I change the oil and filters in my cars every 5000 miles, good quality Millers oil and Mann or Meyle filters, I buy the oil in 25 litre drums it’s cheaper that way, my cars are looked after way more meticulously than the service schedule, my cars have always been totally reliable ….. I wonder why? Well apart from my german air cooled but I’m sure it’ll be an issue caused by someone else who had been in there before!
My point is that I’d be surprised if shoddy maintenance and too long between oil and filter changes is not the reason why modern engines are self destructing on a regular basis, and wonder how many of these engines would still be running if only they’d a service twice per year.

10 years ago I would have probably agreed with you. Regular oil changes used to prevent premature wear but now with synthetic oils the intervals can be huge. My van has 30,000 mile oil changes, it's now at 140,000 miles and showing no signs of wear and uses no oil between services.

 

[Ubique]

I've never, since I changed my first timing belt on a Cortina, seen a stretched timing belt - worn, yes, but not stretched. The spring tensioner is there to make the application of the correct pre load relatively simple and prevent premature wear or timing issues by virtue of being too tight or slack.

There are many factors that affect engine longevity, servicing is just one of them - and increasingly servicing is part of the 'total cost of ownership' considered by lease and hire companies as to whether to offer the vehicle as part of their fleet, most have quite a large (i.e. expensive) service at the three or four year point - just after the lease company have sold them on. Audi for example, specify a brake fluid change at three years then every two - purely to lower their TCO and for no sound engineering reason. Engine oils are also engineered to a change point specified by the car manufacturer, not what's best for the longevity of the engine. It's very important that engine oils meet the full specification, not just the 'grade'.

 

[AVI_8]

10 years ago I would have probably agreed with you. Regular oil changes used to prevent premature wear but now with synthetic oils the intervals can be huge. My van has 30,000 mile oil changes, it's now at 140,000 miles and showing no signs of wear and uses no oil between services.

Sorry I don’t agree with that, you‘ve been lucky are are maybe convinced by what you’ve either read or been told, I’m well aware how synthetic oils have evolved but by products of the combustion process and engine wear particles are still in the oil, yes the filter may trap most of this but it’s dirty oil with a much reduced viscosity as the oil ages, if you were to send a sample of your 30,000 oil in for analysis you’d see what I mean.

 

[Bornfree]

Sorry I don’t agree with that, you‘ve been lucky are are maybe convinced by what you’ve either read or been told, I’m well aware how synthetic oils have evolved but by products of the combustion process and engine wear particles are still in the oil, yes the filter may trap most of this but it’s dirty oil with a much reduced viscosity as the oil ages, if you were to send a sample of your 30,000 oil in for analysis you’d see what I mean.

As I say it uses no oil and still does 28.5mpg the same as it did from new. It will be be changed at 10 years old / 200,000 miles and it will have only had 6 oil changes.

 

[Ubique]

@AVI_8 I agree somewhat, but it depends if you're referencing petrol or diesel engines and the emissions specification level. The two are very different in terms of specification and pollutants, additionally emissions systems with a DPF cause oil dilution (and the correct spec oil is capable of absorbing some of the negative effects without compromising lubrication), however, the engine oil for DPF vehicles (and to some extent GPF equipped vehicles) is a compromise between lubrication, holding contaminants in suspension and minimising the ash content in the DPF. It's a complicated subject area and not one I pretend to have in-depth knowledge of beyond various vehicle manufacturer training, I would say though, it is not 'better' to use DPF graded engine oil in a non-DPF vehicle.

 

[AVI_8]

@AVI_8 I agree somewhat, but it depends if you're referencing petrol or diesel engines and the emissions specification level. The two are very different in terms of specification and pollutants, additionally emissions systems with a DPF cause oil dilution (and the correct spec oil is capable of absorbing some of the negative effects without compromising lubrication), however, the engine oil for DPF vehicles (and to some extent GPF equipped vehicles) is a compromise between lubrication, holding contaminants in suspension and minimising the ash content in the DPF. It's a complicated subject area and not one I pretend to have in-depth knowledge of beyond various vehicle manufacturer training, I would say though, it is not 'better' to use DPF graded engine oil in a non-DPF vehicle.

I have two 3.0 diesels and one 2.0 diesel.
2 of which have DPF and one doesn’t, and I know where you’re going with DPF whereby diesel can dilute the oil with the regen process, but I standby what I said that whatever engine is fitted whether petrol or diesel, engines which have either tensioners or turbochargers especially but also for rod and main bearings, regular oil changes will make an engine live longer.

 

[Ubique]

Again, somewhat agree - any engine that suffers short journeys, low running temperatures and low load conditions will suffer, regardless of oil changes because the wear has already taken place. Quality oil, changed 'just often enough' coupled with engine & exhaust reaching efficiency temperatures on a regular basis will reduce wear and reduce build-up of contaminants. There's likely as many opinions as there are car drivers, the above is an observational opinion.
Doubtless there'll be someone with a degree in oil-ology or something along to 'put me right' - but this is the internet where all things are equal in standing, as I said, it's my opinion based upon observations of how other people use their cars and the impact that usage can have on the powertrain.

 

[AVI_8]

Again, somewhat agree - any engine that suffers short journeys, low running temperatures and low load conditions will suffer, regardless of oil changes because the wear has already taken place. Quality oil, changed 'just often enough' coupled with engine & exhaust reaching efficiency temperatures on a regular basis will reduce wear and reduce build-up of contaminants. There's likely as many opinions as there are car drivers, the above is an observational opinion.
Doubtless there'll be someone with a degree in oil-ology or something along to 'put me right' - but this is the internet where all things are equal in standing, as I said, it's my opinion based upon observations of how other people use their cars and the impact that usage can have on the powertrain.

Fair enough I’ll continue to do do what I do, and stand by what I said, it’s a contentious subject, I’ll take it no further

 

[Ubique]

Fair enough I’ll continue to do do what I do, and stand by what I said, it’s a contentious subject, I’ll take it no further

I wasn't disagreeing - just expanding with my personal experiences, there will be some who 'know best', or at least their internet personas do, that will doubtless contradict your personal experience (and probably mine too), that's just how the internet works.

 

[500e]

The Manufacturer and oil suppliers really only worries that it lasts the warranty and the leasing Co. life time

 

[AVI_8]

I wasn't disagreeing - just expanding with my personal experiences, there will be some who 'know best', or at least their internet personas do, that will doubtless contradict your personal experience (and probably mine too), that's just how the internet works.

Fair point, what a fair few people don’t know is that what a vehicle manufacturer tells their buyers is a bunch of lies, take BMW for example, their automatic gearboxes are what is known as “sealed for life” that means to them that it’s sealed for the lifetime of their warranty.
So is it sealed fir life?
No it’s not, it’s a ZF gearbox, which is also fitted to Jaguar, Mercedes, Audi etc etc.
Other manufacturers who fit the same gearbox require it to be serviced.
There was a “class action lawsuit” in America a few years ago which BMW lost, it cost them a lot of money, as a result BMW’s in the USA had gearbox oil changes required in the service schedule, the reason, because of gearbox failure, this lawsuit in the USA cost BMW a lot of money.
But in the UK and Europe it’s not required because over here we don’t have an equivalent law suit.
Ask the manufacturer of the gearbox ZF and they’ll tell you it should be serviced at 30k miles, same for their sealed for life transfer boxes and sealed for life diffs which by the way don’t even have a drain plug, needless to say I’ve found a way to change all of these fluids.
Car manufacturers are saying that you can cover a ridiculous amount of miles without service, they are only covering their **** until the warranty expires, and in most cases it works.
And the problem is that most folk with little mechanical knowledge believe them, and why would they not?

 

[bricol]

Over here in the USA, the land of the ingrained one minute oil change every 3000 miles for your car, the typical oil change interval for a HGV is 25,000 miles . . . ie big diesel, big turbo. But I guess, nice long constant runs rather than stop start.

 

[AVI_8]

Over here in the USA, the land of the ingrained one minute oil change every 3000 miles for your car, the typical oil change interval for a HGV is 25,000 miles . . . ie big diesel, big turbo. But I guess, nice long constant runs rather than stop start.

And are the owner drivers of these vehicles waiting 25,000 miles or is it the big corporations, I’ll bet it’s the latter Though it’s a slightly different situation with an HGV plugging along for hours and hours at 1500 rpm

 

[Ubique]

I've worked for various manufacturers & their dealer networks since I came back to UK a few years ago, So yes, I know exactly what you're on about. ZF sold the 6HP26 to various manufacturers including LR, who determined it was 'filled for life' - ZF have recently also started to recommend transmission flushes (rather than just straight changes) in limited circumstances - whereas LR only recommended it in the case of contamination or a diagnostic aid. I've personally done many 'double flushes' on these transmissions as a restorative repair.

 

[AVI_8]

Yeh apologies for the thread transition my point which I didn’t mention was that if manufacturers are willing to lie about maintenance schedules for gearboxes, diffs etc, then it’s not rocket science to think that they’re doing the same for engines, I’ll leave it at that.

 

[Ubique]

I wouldn't say they were setting out to deceive anyone, more the accountants of engineering were determining the %age of failures they could absorb in warranty & extended warranty before they would lose money... All warranty is a trade-off between design and wear, as long as one beats the other by a beneficial amount, it's a win - or at least it was until Covid and things stopped being made, forcing dealers to sell vehicles they would have previously passed on - and therefore not a concern (manufacturers are not interested in the used market, just as used car buyers generally deride the vehicles they'll be buying 6-10 years down the line) We're now selling as 'approved used cars' 2016 vehicles, and it's costing a fair bit to get them up to spec., despite being 'old' vehicles, the badge vanity means the buyer thinks a ~seven year old vehicle should have the same drive quality as a ~2 year old vehicle, so you can imagine some of the conversations... some of the service packages are costing the salesmen dear as well!

 

[Trevorleach]

Over here in the USA, the land of the ingrained one minute oil change every 3000 miles for your car, the typical oil change interval for a HGV is 25,000 miles . . . ie big diesel, big turbo. But I guess, nice long constant runs rather than stop start.

HGVs in the UK anywhere between 50 and 150k engine oil changes, most transmission oils are 3 years or 300k.
Engine failure due to wear and tear is almost unheard of, trucks with over a million kms are everywhere, where I work we have approx 150 trucks and up until 2 months ago nothing had less than a million on the clock, and many were kissing 1.5 million.