Sherman Tig (Jasic in disguise?)

[mdr]

@Gazz292 you've saved so much on the welder so why not just get the CK superflex cable and 17 torch (good for 150 amps)?

https://www.rapidwelding.com/dynamic/DisplayItem.aspx?c=CK-CK1712RSFRG&zl=3

https://www.rapidwelding.com/dynamic/DisplayItem.aspx?c=D3595-1-4

I assume it's a 3/8 bsp connection on the front of the Sherman 206p? If that link above becomes painful to keep unscrewing and redoing you can cut the gas hose in half and add a rectus 21 so it's just an inch or two of hose dangling out of the front of the machine.

I don't have the 206p - I have the Sherman 210 and that's got a rectus 21 (or similar) mounted to the front already.

Just got a superflex. So nice...

https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/new-tig-torch.107631/

 

[DavidL]

@Gazz292 - apologies if this is a repeat for you, but back on the thread you'll see a few of us have bought the Kennedy flex torches from Zoro tools. They've very cheap and seem remarkably good quality. Hobby use only here, obvs.

You'll need to swap over a few plugs though - if you buy the WP17F, it comes with a 10-25 plug fitted (with "Sherman" on, as I recall!! ), so you'd need:
-a 5 pin torch plug
-a 35-50 dinse plug (cheap from zoro too) or adapter
-an M10 swivel hose tail (or rectus 21 if you convert your panel as you suggest - or like a few of us have done, just make up a short adapter hose)

(On that note, personal preference, I'd worry about making more "stick out" on the front with a (semi) permanent adapter in case something drops on it / sideswipes it and wrecks the bulkhead connector - I'd instead go for the short hose option!) (EDITED TO ADD: Sorry, as @mdr suggests)

The Kennedy is much more manageable - and the big thing is the button. The button on the supplied torch is terrible. (IMHO) Nothing between on and off even with thin TIG gloves.

If you need links, I'll dig them out in the thread

 

[matt1978]

Wilkinson Star are the sole importers of Jasic in the UK and Ireland and founded Jasic UK and maybe Europe as I also believe that they are responsible for European sales.

To offer a bit of balance, Wilkinson has made Jasic what is now is in Europe. Over the years that investment would of run into the millions on stock etc. When they place orders, it will be for containers of machines at a time as part of their remit is to be the European stockist. All of that costs money, as does translating all of the user manuals and marketing and establishing a support network for the product/brand.

Wilkinsons gripe was probably at Jasic China, for allowing it to happen in the first place. Imagine you have put your money where your mouth is, created a very big brand awareness and created a market for the products and then couple of years into the journey the same factory starts churning out the same machine to a OEM at a cost that allows them to be half of your selling price.

Out of interest what happened to all of the comments from the guy who it was who first stripped them down side by side?

 

[Richiew]

Out of interest what happened to all of the comments from the guy who it was who first stripped them down side by side?

Not totally sure but I think he was selling quite a bit of new or very nearly new welders and I assume he might have fallen foul of moderation rules.

 

[Tangledfeet]

Out of interest what happened to all of the comments from the guy who it was who first stripped them down side by side?

Didn't realise they'd gone... quite an epic discussion that has turned into.

 

[Pigeon_Droppings2]

then couple of years into the journey the same factory starts churning out the same machine to a OEM at a cost that allows them to be half of your selling price.

Wonder how long it will take for Tesla to learn that lesson the hard way...made in china means all your IP is basically owned by China I suspect.

 

[Menno Bruinen]

Wilkinson Star are the sole importers of Jasic in the UK and Ireland and founded Jasic UK and maybe Europe as I also believe that they are responsible for European sales.

To offer a bit of balance, Wilkinson has made Jasic what is now is in Europe. Over the years that investment would of run into the millions on stock etc. When they place orders, it will be for containers of machines at a time as part of their remit is to be the European stockist. All of that costs money, as does translating all of the user manuals and marketing and establishing a support network for the product/brand.

Wilkinsons gripe was probably at Jasic China, for allowing it to happen in the first place. Imagine you have put your money where your mouth is, created a very big brand awareness and created a market for the products and then couple of years into the journey the same factory starts churning out the same machine to a OEM at a cost that allows them to be half of your selling price.

Out of interest what happened to all of the comments from the guy who it was who first stripped them down side by side?

Yes, you're right it's very irritating that a factory is selling the same machine after a couple of years at discount pricing.

I'm a simple mechanic and do not understand marketing rules, management decisions and so on......... But I've got some money burning in my pocket for a welding machine and want to get the best possible in a price range, and I'm very sorry that I don't have enough dollars for an original Jasic!

Jasic has a reputation of being good quality, good warranty (after registration) but at a price....... Sherman's got the same machine from the same factory and also got a standard 2 years warranty.
Yes, the market was open (thanks to Wilkinson?) already, and therefore could sell cheaper?
So Jasic/Wilkinson had to sell the machine to a higher price to start a market and support it, and China said; we will protect you sure, go ahead do it .
Or did they say, yeah whatever, the machine is costing you this much $/£/€ and that's also for other distributors?

I'm serious; I do not understand these trading and marketing things! But companys are (must be!) also aware of competition and the risk they are taking.

My former employer was selling tyres for internal transportation systems.
One day there was a rep coming over and said he couldn't sell brand X, because they where the competition and where also cheaper......... My boss said that the customer had a choice in our shop!
Well not if he kept selling brand X said the rep; we won't supply you with our brand if you keep brand X in your assortment.
Finish your coffee and don't come back said my boss.
My employer was not angry, he was sad that he was restrained in a free market, and was threatened by a company that was delivering a product to him that he did not got for free.

Uh, oh, got a little bit lost now....... but the moral is that I've got to work hard for my earnings, and will flip every €£$ before I spend it on my welding hobby.
And yes, I take the risk if it's the same product with less warranty (more or less).

If it's true that Wilkinson opened up the market in Europe for Jasic, then I apologize sincerely for not buying their ac/dc TIG welder....... Then again I wouldn't bought it if there wasn't another choice, simply because I'm to poor to do so.

Better stop now, before it gets ugly....... If it not already did.

Cheers.

 

[Chris Snow]

Ultimately Jasic is just a Chinese brand, Wilkinson are just the importer, yes they may have made a brand out of it, but ultimately it's not their product! they should have made their own brand and products if they wanted to, or had an exclusive right to distribute in a region (which is legal to do)

What's currently going on is a clear breach of Resale Price Maintenance law, might change after January but it is illegal to prevent sale in this way in EU states.

What we do know is that if you can buy the Sherman for say £450, the cost to import it must be more like £250-300 to make margin in the supply chain.
Wilkinson Star probably have an even better buy price than Tecweld (Sherman importer) as they must sell more units. So that means that there is 1K margin on the Jasic. greedy much?
Now the argument about the 5 year warranty is irrelevant, that was their decision to offer that in the package.

Ultimately you can buy the Jasic in other countries at prices that are not that far off the Sherman in some cases, seem to be under the model E201
£640
https://jasic.ua/product/tig-200p-ac-dc-e201-19
£550
https://www.inogarden.ro/aparate-de-sudura-jasic-tig-200p-ac-dc-e201.html
£735
https://www.e-serpantinas.com/index.php/jasic-tig-200p-ac-dc-e201.html
£680
https://www.svarecky-elektrody.cz/jasic-tig-200p-ac-dc-e201-horak-zemnici-kabel/d-16819

So the summary is were being ripped off in the UK!

 

[Gazz292]

@Gazz292 - apologies if this is a repeat for you, but back on the thread you'll see a few of us have bought the Kennedy flex torches from Zoro tools. They've very cheap and seem remarkably good quality. Hobby use only here, obvs.

That looks a good deal, i gather that kenedy flexi torch has a seperate gas hose and power cable,
is it a lot more flexible / lighter compared to the stock sherman wp26 cable?

i guess nothing will compare to a superflex combined hose/cable,
i wonder how the chinese 'torchesm' copies compare that sell for ~30 quid on fleabay, compared to at least double the price for the real thing.

i keep looking for the cheapest options don't i, i know i got the welder cheap... well really i got it free so to speak, as my GF bought it me for xmas, i could just about afford a £150 dc only machine off ebay.

 

[Menno Bruinen]

That looks a good deal, i gather that kenedy flexi torch has a seperate gas hose and power cable,
is it a lot more flexible / lighter compared to the stock sherman wp26 cable?

i guess nothing will compare to a superflex combined hose/cable,
i wonder how the chinese 'torchesm' copies compare that sell for ~30 quid on fleabay, compared to at least double the price for the real thing.

i keep looking for the cheapest options don't i, i know i got the welder cheap... well really i got it free so to speak, as my GF bought it me for xmas, i could just about afford a £150 dc only machine off ebay.

Whatever you do; Keep the GF!

 

[Gazz292]

oh i will be doing,

We are looking to move in together (currently live separately, me at my parents) and it'll be a flat at first, so i told her i'd have to leave the welder in the shed here,

She told me i could bring it with me, she'll just go out the room when i use it

 

[qwakers]

Put a ring on it, Quick!

 

[tigdlo]

I'm sure Wilkinson Star in the UK pays a similar price for a Jasic Mini 200 AC/DC as their Polish counterparts pay for a Sherman 206P but the UK price is marked up to cover extra cost for support and a 5 year warranty. I couldn't afford the extended waranty so I didn't buy it and accepted the standard 2 year warranty with all the hassle that will come with trying to make a warranty claim in Poland if I need to. Even Wilkinson star offer a rebranded Jasic at a discount with 3 years warranty.

Do you think Jasic prices are high enough for them to be taken seriously? too cheap and they would get associated with the lower end Chinese imports.

I replaced my torch with a 26 flex head(£7.49 off ebay) using the original Sherman power cable, cheapest way to get rid of the enormous handle it came with, still not that great as I've done most of my tig welding with a size 9 and 17

This looks like a good price but will need a a bigger dinse plug and adapter for the gas fitting or swap the one from ther original torch. The head could also be swapped for a size 9 as it uses the same power cable and handle as a 17.
https://www.zoro.co.uk/shop/welding...mplete-with-4mtr-cable/f/8842?query=tig torch

 

[Gazz292]

everything is getting expensive-er in the UK it seems,

£31 for the genuine usa made CK 12.5 foot cable, ok tenner postage, but it's with no import duties so that's a plus.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/142124832960

I'd rant about import duties too... recently found out that the usa has a personal import duty threshold of..... $800!!!
what do we get here... 16 piddely quids worth.

 

[DavidL]

That looks a good deal, i gather that kenedy flexi torch has a seperate gas hose and power cable,
is it a lot more flexible / lighter compared to the stock sherman wp26 cable?

i guess nothing will compare to a superflex combined hose/cable,
i wonder how the chinese 'torchesm' copies compare that sell for ~30 quid on fleabay, compared to at least double the price for the real thing.

i keep looking for the cheapest options don't i, i know i got the welder cheap... well really i got it free so to speak, as my GF bought it me for xmas, i could just about afford a £150 dc only machine off ebay.

So this is a fair point. I found the cable nice and flexible but in fairness, my big gripe with the Sherman was its torch, not so much the cable/pipe. I think you'd find the sheath a little more flexible but as you say, it's still separate gas and power so won't be as flexible as the super duper flexi one
It's a nice torch though for sure and is cheap, so I'm tempted to say buy it and try it - though as mentioned, I guess there's sourcing the fitments too.

Good luck whichever you choose

 

[Gazz292]

thankyou, so much good advise on here, and such friendly people, sorry if i ask so many questions,

When i was looking at the cheap tig welders, due to never having held a tig torch before i found myself thinking the stock torch handle arrangement of a tube with a cable tied on paddle switch looked naff, like half thought out / cobbled together,
so i prefered the look of the mig style torch handles, they looked more refined, more...complete... boy how wrong i was.

They seem to add bulk, the switch is tiny and lacks feel, you are forced to hold the torch in one position as the switch position is fixed (or of course use the pedal and ignore the switch)

I have a wp26 flex head and standard body, i was going to just swap over the head on the stock torch, but thinking now i may swap out the stock torch body complete for the standard tig torch style body, and use a paddle switch with cable ties.

Still going to get a wp17 and more flexible hose / cable, i bought a plug for the switch connection when i got the welder, thinking ahead that i'd want to make up another torch and cable some time. so at least i have one part already

 

[mdr]

i found myself thinking the stock torch handle arrangement of a tube with a cable tied on paddle switch looked naff, like half thought out / cobbled together

Yep. I've changed my mind too. The stock torch (same on the 210 as the 206) is big, bulky and the major issue for me: the weight hanging off the back of your hand makes the stock torch more effort for fine control. I received the CK super flex today and while only able to play with it off the machine so far, I've immediately found its weight makes a massive difference. It's like you have moved from a cumbersome, awkward, and heavy fat child's crayon, to a light, agile and dexterous 0,3mm mechanical pencil.

The standard torch with all the power cable and separate power flex is about 2.2Kg. The super flex is about 800g. Granted half(?) the weight may be on the floor or in your lap, (or wrapped round your shoulders, legs, arms, etc!), but I'd rather hold, say, 400g than 1.1Kg.

Both sporting a number stubby gas lens kit (for fairness - like that really makes a difference!) and the scales zeroed each time after the chopping board (to spread the weight) was put on the scale...

 

[Munkul]

The wrong ergo style torches are horrible... the "right" ones are great IMHO it directly relates to how long the neck on the torch is... A long necked torch with a button almost a handspan away from the head, is just a royal PITA.
So is a stiff cable... I'd personally chop that nylon sheath right off the stock torch, and cover it in a zipper cloth sheath instead, as it will make a huge difference.
The Parweld ergo torches are good this way, as they have a short leather sheath for the most important bit of the cable, right up near the torch.

A short necked ergo torch is great... just find different ways to hold it. Use your thumb, or any of your fingers to trigger the button. It just takes time and practice. There isn't a set "way" to hold a torch.

My two go-to positions would be: 1. hold torch neck/body like a pencil, and use thumb to trigger, or 2. hold pistol-grip style with forefinger on trigger, and half a wrap of cable around your arm to stabilise.

I used to believe in flexible neck torches... I suppose they have their place, but I prefer a short fixed neck, and find something to prop off, these days.

Those stubby gas lens kits for 17/26 torches are a game changer.

 

[addjunkie]

I'm a wimp and like a dinky w20 torch, never got on with the parawaweld w26 at all.

 

[Gazz292]

So near to being able to start practicing with the sherman tig,

Got the gas cylinder, sits nicely behind the rear left corner of my toolbox (a 10 litre cylinder would fit by the side of it, but this is 20 litres):


I even found my old valve key in my toolbox from when i last had argoshield for the mig (~17 years ago) Everything was gettin oh so close..

When i bought the welder i also bought 3 meters of 8mm gas hose, the only hose sold on the weldes shop appart from the twin oxy acetylene stuff, so i figured it'd fit the usual rectus 21 fittings most of their welders come with.

So when i went to fit it to the rectus fitting and regulator it was too loose, i have a set of those single ear crimp on clamps, and even forcing the next size down clamp on and crimping it, it leaks if moved.

Buggggeerrrr!

The regulator and rectus fittings hose barbs are just over 6mm, so should i be looking for 5mm ID hose for this?