Dimitri De Spiegeleer
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Aluminium guttering does not fall under EN1090.
- Thread starter matt1978
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Wendelspanswick
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That's a bit of a sweeping statement, just because you are not signed up to EN1090 does not make you a cowboy, there are a huge amount of competent fabricators who have had this regulation foisted on them by Europe. I guessing if you had a poll the majority would not have wanted this.
It's not as if there are bridges and buildings falling down across the country. It's just another level of bureaucracy bought in to leech money out of fabrication companies.
It's going to hit the small businesses hardest, sole traders and the like who will struggle to find the time to wade through the compliance and not able to afford advisors to help them.
Who will gain?
The large companies who will have less competition so can put their prices up, add in the cost of compliance and steelwork just got a whole lot more expensive with the regulators taking there cut!
Mid Wales welder
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Thanks for the clarification
Mid Wales welder
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This is my point exactly, there are plenty of very good welder/fabricators who could pass a coding easily it's just that they choose to work for a company who doesn't require coding (until now that is). So if these welders now have to go through the hassle of coding will they now be wanting (and surely deserve) a pay rise?
Mid Wales welder
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Yes I see what you mean, don't think I'm making my point well enough lol. All I mean is before this 1090 came in, generally a coded welder made more money than a non coded welder, even if the non coded welder was just as good. So I was just trying to gauge if people thought that this may push wages up really? Hope that makes a bit more sense.
Just so you know, I'm all in favour of this as I have been trying to get my boss to code us anyway as I feel that's just the way it should be.
steviec_lj
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Precisesly! That's why I'm out of a job, because the EN1090 has been forced on the UK from Brussels, yet more policing of our industries by foreign countries.
Yet another way, as Paul has discovered, for the Government to make businesses pay excessively large amounts of money into a scheme that hasn't been thought about, and is as clear as black treacle. Everyone has their own opinion on what is and isn't covered, hence they have been trying to push the date back for another year.
As you say, its going to hit the small companies HARD, I believe it was Welderpaul that said he'd spent in the region of £30k.
Kent
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My whole feelings and I fear we will also see those bigger companies loosing out to other nations that find it easier to implement this sort of stuff from existing red tape they so love (meaning Germany). You know on most large contracts you end up having to put it out to European tender by law, I think some in the UK missed that important point
Kent
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Ok this is how I see it and I suppose I need to be respectful to those who have taken their WP for the work they are doing and been approved by their guy to their procedure. a "coded welder" is not referenced anywhere it just a generic term for someone who has qualified to the set WP std for the task at hand. So yes that guy is effectively a coded welder - however after taking your test in your own workshop with a familiar plant in an easy position, don't go thinking its time to go off and work on contract nuclear for the likes of Seimens. It is in this sort of latter area I PERSONALLY see "coded welder" as being the appropriate term. The above coding as regards pay frankly should be negligible as not only has the employer had to go through a load of strife and cost but the welder will need to re-qualify at his next place of work anyhow am I right, right? fair do he has passed in the past but welders have commonly had to do some weld tests following interview for years and were they didn't I have seen guys fired by lunch (oh for common sense to prevail in employment and the days before HR)
There is a bit of sour grapes here from myself because I have done such work in the past then moved on, now we have the EN bit and some numpty in a suit says I cannot weld for a portal frame on a farm! I was doing more than this in my teens, I am a one man band how can I test and inspect my own work? or audit? I have no papers now they were left behind over 20 years ago when I threw my visor at the boss walked off site and founded my first business (that run very well until bankers decided to ruin the once flourishing market "aided by whom? with their new rules and regs!)- ok so that don't mean anything now we are controlled in our everyday lives by unelected officials in Brussels. Does it make the world a safer place, I think not! No it just gives the blood sucking parasites something else to feed on and gives the Germans another way to control the rest of Europe to their wishes.
So good luck to the guys on the shop floor but if everyone is the same as you forget any wage rise, reason is you are no different from the next guy working in the fab shop down the road or in the next town/ county or country (as long as its an EU one). This then brings up imported labour from poorer economies- Rant over now
Dimitri De Spiegeleer
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I'm very sorry for the position you are currently in, but - being belgian - I don't quite understand your anger towards Brussels.
This entire story is coming from a European workgroup, with representatives from each country. The meetings are always held in different locations, at least one meeting in the country of each representative. So there are bound to have been one in the UK, as there were brittish representatives as well. Brussels doesn't have a significant meaning in this story, it's merely one of the locations were those meetings were held.
True what you say, a "coded" weldor doesn't exists, each certificate is very specific and has a limited field where it's applicable.
One man bands are having a rough time, also in Belgium, where several small places (father and son, two brothers, ... , those kinds of firms) were forced to either close, or to work together.
I currently am helping a company that is made of six small local firms. By carefully choosing the WPSses and the PQRs (to minimize the expenses), and having one guy follow the RWC course (so they can work independently in the future), they're off to a very good start.
It must be said, they have a great welding coordinator which helps a great deal
Now might be the time to engage in a new start, merging with some fellow companies?
This entire story is coming from a European workgroup, with representatives from each country. The meetings are always held in different locations, at least one meeting in the country of each representative. So there are bound to have been one in the UK, as there were brittish representatives as well. Brussels doesn't have a significant meaning in this story, it's merely one of the locations were those meetings were held.
True what you say, a "coded" weldor doesn't exists, each certificate is very specific and has a limited field where it's applicable.
One man bands are having a rough time, also in Belgium, where several small places (father and son, two brothers, ... , those kinds of firms) were forced to either close, or to work together.
I currently am helping a company that is made of six small local firms. By carefully choosing the WPSses and the PQRs (to minimize the expenses), and having one guy follow the RWC course (so they can work independently in the future), they're off to a very good start.
It must be said, they have a great welding coordinator which helps a great deal
Now might be the time to engage in a new start, merging with some fellow companies?
no probThanks for the clarification
matt1978
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That's the whole issue, people put too much stock into the word "coded" welder. It only means welding a particular joint to a given proven standard. Nothing more nothing less. You can only weld the joint in front of you to the standard specified by the client. Just because the test is carried out at your usual place of work on machines that your "used" to using is semi-irreverent, because the machines should be calibrated and as such output to within a specified accepted range. Also the parameters required to successfully weld the joint are given in the WPS, they are not decided by the welder himself.
The whole Brussels debate is for another time as I don't think EU bureaucracy has anything to with this issue, it all dates back to the Construction Products Directive which later became a Regulation and as such, law. But this CPR/CPD, was debated and agreed by all EU member states, years before it's implementation, so to assume that this is all down to some un-elected officials who have nothing else to do is not really correct.
I know for sure that a lot of very large Structural Steel Fabricators in the UK, also export a lot of there yearly tonnage to other projects based in other EU countries. So regardless of if the EN 1090 law applied in the UK, they would still need to be accredited in order to continue exporting.
At least with this new regulations it means that some company would find it extremely hard to start importing Structural Steel from India or China or South America, which should hopefully mean that rates and prices remain worthwhile in the UK.
Finally, being involved within the welding industry for my profession, I don't see why its so wrong that a bit of "professionalism" is being bought to an industry which was up until now pretty much completely unregulated. It's only now more in line with Tank and pressure Vessel manufacture.
The whole Brussels debate is for another time as I don't think EU bureaucracy has anything to with this issue, it all dates back to the Construction Products Directive which later became a Regulation and as such, law. But this CPR/CPD, was debated and agreed by all EU member states, years before it's implementation, so to assume that this is all down to some un-elected officials who have nothing else to do is not really correct.
I know for sure that a lot of very large Structural Steel Fabricators in the UK, also export a lot of there yearly tonnage to other projects based in other EU countries. So regardless of if the EN 1090 law applied in the UK, they would still need to be accredited in order to continue exporting.
At least with this new regulations it means that some company would find it extremely hard to start importing Structural Steel from India or China or South America, which should hopefully mean that rates and prices remain worthwhile in the UK.
Finally, being involved within the welding industry for my profession, I don't see why its so wrong that a bit of "professionalism" is being bought to an industry which was up until now pretty much completely unregulated. It's only now more in line with Tank and pressure Vessel manufacture.
Dimitri De Spiegeleer
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This is indeed the main reason for the whole EN1090-story, to limit (legally prohibit) chinese/korean/... fabricators to put their (sub-standard) stuff on the European market.
Also, only Notified Bodies that are accredited can audit those companies. so a chinese marking from a chinese "notified body" is worth absolutely nothing, and won't (shouldn't?) pass the european borders.
PED is done according to ASME codes for as long as I know, and is about the same regarding severity of construction/weldments. So I can only second matt's last paragraph above.
Kent
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If I am a cynic its because I have seen the claims made that it will bring professionalism into other industry and didn't in encourage the cowboys to flout the rules and took out a whole sector of competent experienced people who just sought other more profitable areas. Part P being a classic were we now have kitchen fitters, plumbers and ex- squaddies calling themselves qualified electricians
Kent
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I'm very sorry for the position you are currently in, but - being belgian - I don't quite understand your anger towards Brussels.
This entire story is coming from a European workgroup, with representatives from each country. The meetings are always held in different locations, at least one meeting in the country of each representative. So there are bound to have been one in the UK, as there were brittish representatives as well. Brussels doesn't have a significant meaning in this story, it's merely one of the locations were those meetings were held.
True what you say, a "coded" weldor doesn't exists, each certificate is very specific and has a limited field where it's applicable.
One man bands are having a rough time, also in Belgium, where several small places (father and son, two brothers, ... , those kinds of firms) were forced to either close, or to work together.
I currently am helping a company that is made of six small local firms. By carefully choosing the WPSses and the PQRs (to minimize the expenses), and having one guy follow the RWC course (so they can work independently in the future), they're off to a very good start.
It must be said, they have a great welding coordinator which helps a great deal
Now might be the time to engage in a new start, merging with some fellow companies?
no prob
Ah I see your one of "them" You think its OK they are forced to close and merge because I for one do not. I must remember to merge profit, billing and generally price into "expenses" it sounds like your doing the client a proper favour then.
New start? no chance and I predict EN123456 part 789 will go with the rest of the failed Euro experiment and we will return to common sense, nothing was wrong with "did you do that?" ," Pack you kit and go". The voters and in some countries rioters are already telling the real tale
Wendelspanswick
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I can see Kent's point, I know personally 2 small fab companies close to me that are debating whether to call it a day, highly regarded but not able to comply with the regs without massive time and cash inputs which they just don't have. We are talking about the livelihoods of highly skilled men who have done nothing wrong apart from being too busy to wade through the compliance and run on small margins so cannot afford 'fee charging' advisors, it's a very emotive subject.
matt1978
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That may well be the case, my point was Dimitri, is not responsible for the implementation of En 1090 across Europe. There is no need to be rude to him just because you don't think that it should apply here or to your particular company.
As far as I can see he is a very knowledgeable person on the subject and all he as tried to do is impart that knowledge onto people who have asked qustions. There is no need to be curt or rude in response to his posts. No excuse for that!
As far as I can see he is a very knowledgeable person on the subject and all he as tried to do is impart that knowledge onto people who have asked qustions. There is no need to be curt or rude in response to his posts. No excuse for that!
Wendelspanswick
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My biggest bugbear is there was no need to regulate the industry, especially as the are other trades where it would be more logical to regulate but are not such easy targets.
Why not regulate the servicing and repair of motor vehicles, because it would cause a huge backlash from the large percentage of the population who service and repair their own vehicles. We allow untrained persons to modify and change vehicles that can weigh in excess of a 2 tons and exceed speeds of 150mph and yet it is unregulated.
It makes no sense.
No welder/fabricators that I now knew this was coming, they certainly weren't consulted.
Why not regulate the servicing and repair of motor vehicles, because it would cause a huge backlash from the large percentage of the population who service and repair their own vehicles. We allow untrained persons to modify and change vehicles that can weigh in excess of a 2 tons and exceed speeds of 150mph and yet it is unregulated.
It makes no sense.
No welder/fabricators that I now knew this was coming, they certainly weren't consulted.
matt1978
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Regardless of what people think or don't think, the intention of EN 1090 implantation was never intended to put small companies out of business. The costs associated to a fairly small company are not as huge as is being reported, it all depends on where the starting point is!
If they are a very well run professional company as quoted in your post, then in all honesty the learning curve for them will be relatively small because by the nature of their professionalism they will probably already be doing a lot of what the Norm calls for, maybe just not quite laid out the same.
Before any company even considers shutting down, due to scaremongering about how much it's going to cost, they should engage an EN 1090 Notified body to conduct a "gap analysis". They will take a snap shot of how the company is currently operating taking into account all of the systems for traceability already in place and then give a fair an accurate overview of what is further required. From that you are able to cost up exactly how much compliance will cost.
If they are a very well run professional company as quoted in your post, then in all honesty the learning curve for them will be relatively small because by the nature of their professionalism they will probably already be doing a lot of what the Norm calls for, maybe just not quite laid out the same.
Before any company even considers shutting down, due to scaremongering about how much it's going to cost, they should engage an EN 1090 Notified body to conduct a "gap analysis". They will take a snap shot of how the company is currently operating taking into account all of the systems for traceability already in place and then give a fair an accurate overview of what is further required. From that you are able to cost up exactly how much compliance will cost.
