EWM Phoenix conversion

[Hood]

Can anyone think of a reason this is not working when the Binzel push/pull works faultlessly?
The only two reasons I can think of are
1. The binzels wire pull is weak, it won't even pull the wire out the torch at the end of the reel. So because of this it doesn't really need good synchronisation as it is only really acting to keep the tension on the wire from the main feed rollers.
2. The problem is the pushing of the wire after the nano feeder, it is being pushed 3 or 4m. The feeders vary the feedrate but you get a slight bending/pulling back on the wire and thus the EWM is over compensating in a similar fashion as you would see in a badly tuned servo system on a CNC machine.

Unlikely to get a chance in the next couple of days to try anything else out as the weather is supposed to be better and I need to try and catch up with some welding. When I do get a chance I will try and slacken off the feed pressure in the nano drive to try and mimic the pull pressure of the Binzel Push/Pull and see if that makes any difference.

 

[Richard.]

I’m no expert but I would guess the problem is to do with the point @Brad93 first pointed out. The two motors aren’t synchronised and quite possibly running at two slightly different speeds.
This would cause your pulsing and vary the arc length because rather than working together they are fighting each other

 

[Hood]

I’m no expert but I would guess the problem is to do with the point @Brad93 first pointed out. The two motors aren’t synchronised and quite possibly running at two slightly different speeds.
This would cause your pulsing and vary the arc length because rather than working together they are fighting each other

Yes but that is what I am trying to figure out, is it lack of synchronisation and if it is why does the Binzel Push/Pull work flawlessly.
So to my mind, if it is lack of sync then the Binzel must also suffer from that but it still works fine.
If that is the case then it can only be the weak pulling force of the Binzel that lets it work correctly so in theory if I slacken the feed roll pressure of the nanofeeder off as much as I can it should then mimic the way the Binzel works.

 

[Richard.]

Binzel and lorch are two different systems. While they both are two same voltage motors there may be more to the way they operate with regards to what info they need from the machine.
The binzel might be closer to the sync of the ewm because binzel don’t make welding machines so it won’t require specific machine feed back. It’s probably more universal. and the lorch might require more clever trickery to do it
I’m only guessing here and thinking logically. I could be miles out.

 

[Hood]

They are both just DC motors as far as I can see. Neither have feedback TACHS or encoders so the only way I can see the EWM being able to sync is by the method the manual suggests. That's is by monitoring the current draw of the motors.

 

[Hood]

Oh and also lorch don't make the nanofeeders, they are made by mechafin.

 

[Richard.]

They are both just DC motors as far as I can see. Neither have feedback TACHS or encoders so the only way I can see the EWM being able to sync is by the method the manual suggests. That's is by monitoring the current draw of the motors.

Ok. Well like I say it’s just my logic thinking. I don’t know the answer for sure as I’ve never owned or had anything to do with those items your trying to make work

 

[Richard.]

Oh and also lorch don't make the nanofeeders, they are made by mechafin.

Lorch don’t make there own torches either binzel do but the clever bit on those torches with the digital interface is all lorch.
Lorch will have fitted there own plug on that feed system yes? So it doesn’t matter who makes it it’s been configured to go on a lorch.

 

[Richard.]

On the Lorch system the synrconisation is provided by a additional PCB and software, it wouldn’t work properly with our standard annolgue PCB for conventional push pulls. But again, perhaps it will be different with the EWM?

@Hood
Look. Matt has said it himself. It uses a lorch pcb. This is exactly what I was saying. The binzel won’t work like this because if it’s binzel they will sell it to suit a variety of machines.

 

[Hood]

@Hood

Look. Matt has said it himself. It uses a lorch pcb. This is exactly what I was saying. The binzel won’t work like this because if it’s binzel they will sell it to suit a variety of machines.

What I am saying is the Binzel Push-Pull works fine but the nanofeeder doesn't. So to my mind there can only be two reasons for that.

1. the Binzel torches pulling force is so low that it doesn't really require close sync as it is basically just a helper to stop the wire bunching up and snagging.

2. The EWM is managing to sync the motors but it is the 4m of wire after the nanofeeder that is acting like a spring and bouncing and thus making the arc unstable and making keeping the arc length constant a problem.




So for example if it is number 1, which I think is most likely, if the EWM drive rollers are feeding the wire slower than the Binzel is pulling the wire, the wire will just slip in the Binzel rollers and still feed at the intended rate that the EWM feed rollers are pushing it at.

If the EWM is pushing the wire faster than the Binzels rollers are, then the Binzels rollers will tend to speed up as they are getting a helping hand from the wire pushing them.

Obviously there has to be some kind of sync between them but if the situation is as above then it wouldn't have to be all that tight a sync as the low roller pressure in the Binzel will aid and compensate for the poor synchronisation.


So if I slacken the nanofeeders rollers as much as I can then it may behave in the same way as the Binzel, ie make it a helper rather than a properly synchronised puller. One problem may still present itself though and that is with the Binzel the free wire after the rollers is only a tiny amount, basically the torch neck, where on the nanofeeder the free wire would be an extra 4m.

 

[Hood]

@matt1978
Do the nanofeeders used by Lorch have a Tach/Encoder on the motor to aid synchronisation?
I don't think this one does as there are only 2 wires connected.

 

[Jim Davey]

The motors turn at the same speed one the system has wire going through it. Even if unloaded the pp gun motor is slower once wire is going through the rollers it has to go the same speed and it will still be pulling, it just doesn’t look like it will when disconnected.
As to your pulsing issue, I suspect it’s more to do with the size difference between the two motors. The pp gun motor is only a few watts where the nano-feed motor is considerably larger. If the machine is calibrated to output a certain amount of amps for a pp gun and then match speed accordingly it’s going to cause a conflict with the speed it’s trying to get from the main drive motor.
I think you might need to have a chat with EWMs service guy in Newcastle or make a call to the boys in Germany. I think you may need to buy a little bit of modified wiring harness like I do when I fit the mini-drives as the machine doesn’t work in standard config, the fault sounds very similar, very slow speed on the pulled drive rolls if you don’t put the wiring look conector into the alternate socket for a helper feeder.

 

[Hood]

I don't think there is likely to be any such board or wiring harness as EWM do not, as far as I know, use this type of feeder. Basically what it looks like is if slackening the rollers does not work then I have an expensive paper weight, live and learn I suppose, problem is I never learn

 

[Hood]

Reading your post again Jim, are you saying there is a different connection for an intermediate rather than a push/pull?

 

[Hood]

Ah I wonder, pic below with circled connections, Push-Pull and Zwischentrieb or translated, Intermediate Drive.

 

[matt1978]

I will find out the exact reason for you later today, but I know the answer is down to the syncronisation of the 2 motors. I know that this is perhaps what you don’t want to hear given you’ve already spent money on going down this route but I did say on previous occasions that it wouldn’t work.

There is a huge difference with conventional analogue Push Pulls as apposed to more modern Digital ones. The Nanofeeder classes as a digital one.

We have 2 standard DMR PCB’s (the PCB in the wirefeeder) one is specifically for Annalogue Push Pull torches (of which I assume the particular model Binzel torch your using is) and then we have a “digi DMR” which can run the analogue but also the digital range of push pulls.

As far as I understand the annalogue ones just run at a speed which is always a percentage marginally less than the main wirefeeders, mainly just to take up the slack over the 8m of Wire. These torches only need a small voltage supply from the machine in order to power up and can be used on pretty much every sort of machine, even old Basic transformer types.

Digital ones however are more complex and require much more accurate syncronisation. Binzel also make digital Push Pulls and the Nano Feeder and Spinning Motor PT drive torches also fall into this category. In order to successfully use these torches on a lorch machine you have to go into a sub menu and physically tell the machine the type of torch you are using. From this the machine knows in which way it has to sync the 2 motors together.

For 3rd party manufacturers such as mechafin, Binzel and TBI etc they all produce there own sync box, to act as not only the power source to provide the voltage to turn the motors but also the interface “between” the 2 motors

I can only assume that the EWM system works similar to ours but for the sake of arguement let’s say we are trying to connect it to a Lorch machine WITHOUT a digi DMR Board fitted and I’ll relay the answers I get from our Helpdesk.

Below you can see the tech spec of the motor and also a image of the sync box as supplied by Mechafin

 

[Jim Davey]

Yep, try again with the plug from X24 moved to X23.

 

[Hood]

Thanks everyone and sorry for my replies earlier, bit pushed for time today due to it being the first day for a while without rain or gales and I am trying to crack on with the Alu welding.
Will digest all the info later on and reply properly.

 

[matt1978]

So I asked the question, “why won’t a Nanofeeder work properly on a Lorch machine with only a analogue DMR PCB fitted” In a nut shell it’s because the Nanofeeder itself has a Tacho, so the machine needs to be able to read and react to the tacho of its own aswell as the tacho from the Nanofeeder and sync them accordingly.

I can’t definitively say that this is the same with EWM or any other machines because I am not as well versed on EWM or other makes, but I should imagine that it is and that this is the reason that Mechafin produce an additional box in order to be able to use the Nanofeeder on a 3rd party machine

 

[Brad93]

Well I don’t want to say I told you so, but...